Young horse behavior vs something wrong, how to tell?

[Lipsmackerpony88]

I'm curious on how those with young horses, how do you tell what's normal young horse behavior vs something more? Especially in the 5 year old year when so many horses are exercising their own opinions and thoughts on working.

As I stated before, Lynx seems to be unusually spooky. The trainer seems be on the fence about whether this is a 5 year old stage or something bothering him. Or both.

He's always been a bit of a "looky Lou" but I don't think anyone would have called him downright spooky. His reactions were small and reasonable. And he got over it quickly. He dealt with all kinds of stuff well. Jumps in the arena, busy barn atmosphere, one time a dog ran out of no where around the arena. And not to mention the shows they put on with lots of commotion.

But he's now trying to balk at scary stuff and spin. He had not spun with me, but tried. Unfortunately he did a half spin with the trainer the other day. She was very surprised. She worked through it but still. There is no relaxing when on him anymore. No cruise control. He's hypervigilant and the rider must be too at least in reading his cues.

We have to live at minimum in shoulder fore/in. We have to do constant changes of bend and different exercises. I hate feeling so demanding and almost defensive! What I saw from the trainer, is that it's necessary.

The vet at the baen just gave me a compounded omeprazole. I know that's not gold standard but I thought it was worth a start. If not I will try something more official. My vet is out to do teeth on Friday. Just in case that's part of it.

Part of it might be being stuck in the indoor so much. But unfortunately it's winter. So we deal. I'd love any insight. Maybe this is just the hard road of the 5-year-old year! And I need to suck it up for a bit.

[Chisamba]

I treat everything as if it's health related and train everything as though it's behavioral.

By which I mean I attempt to check all the boxes to rule out pain, eyesight, digestion, feed, etc. But if I feel the horse sound and breathy enough to ride, when I am working with it, I train everything as though it's a behavior I want to modify.

Most geldings, in my opinion, go thorough a considerable attitude change somewhere between five and seven.

I know I am not being helpful in giving an opinion on his new spookiness,

[exvet]

It sounds to me like you're covering your bases and it's possible you'll never truly know what this is due to especially if it gradually resolves. My personal opinion is that if the vet doesn't suspect anything after the teeth are done then it's behavioral. Now that doesn't mean you should ignore it or simply muscle through it. Behavioral can be secondary to stress related issues that you should try to remove or condition for so that Lynx learns coping skills. Depending what they are and what can be reasonably avoided in the future would predicate (for me) what I determine must be conditioned for versus make the princess's world perfect LOL. Monty was and is still a particularly 'challenging' horse. He was golden until he turned 5 and then I thought a few times that he really was just a resale project. It would take too long to go through all that I did to cater to the 'special' prince/princess. There were things, though, that I did have to decide he would just have to suck it up and I was more to be feared than whatever excuse he was using at the time. I'm dealing with a little bit of this with Brandon too. When he starts to get more and more distracted I can tell he's simply developing mental fatigue. He's a horse that truly could go on forever physically but mentally not so much. His spooks and antics are a clear signal to me that he's mentally done for the day. I've learned this over repeated observations both in the arena at home, in lessons, and on the trail. He's so good for the first 3-4 miles and then he just become a fidgeting, stress budget and will look for things to spook at which is often the opposite for most and that's because they physically tire. He's not what I would call over the top jittery but there's a distinct difference. All this means is that I have to make the first 20-30 minutes of any ride count and anything more than that needs to be on a loose rein, no pressure ride. This will change but having had others like this in the past I have found that branching out to do other things whether in hand or bonding time, etc helps build the relationship, removes the stress and engages their never ending 'squirrel' mind and in time increments that yield positive results until they're mentally mature enough to take on more. I think so many of us are ever cognizant of physical maturity and not wanting to work a horse doing too much too soon to stress the tendons, ligaments, joints, skeletal structures and sometimes fail to realize that some horses look like they can handle it and physically probably can but their mind, no matter how good, just isn't mature enough to be able to take it all in before mental fatigue becomes real. I see no benefit pushing a horse past his/her point of mental fatigue. It's a fine line because you don't want to reward unwanted/undesired behavior; so, I think this is where the feel and art of asking enough, pushing it to the edge of the envelope and then accepting a positive step, no matter how incremental, and then ending for the day is the key to success of properly developing these types of horses. I've also had success with such types by riding them twice a day, keeping each session short and changing things up (in terms of focus) between sessions. I had an appendix quarter horse decades ago that did the best with this type of training structure and we cleaned up after many trying 'baby green years'. It's always important to listen to the horse and keep an eye out for possible medical issues but sometimes the tension is what is causing the medical issues and you have to find a way to train around or hopefully without the tension that builds between the ears. Easier said than done......I know because I have a breed that is innately bred for such tendencies.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

I treat everything as if it's health related and train everything as though it's behavioral.

By which I mean I attempt to check all the boxes to rule out pain, eyesight, digestion, feed, etc. But if I feel the horse sound and breathy enough to ride, when I am working with it, I train everything as though it's a behavior I want to modify.

Most geldings, in my opinion, go thorough a considerable attitude change somewhere between five and seven.

I know I am not being helpful in giving an opinion on his new spookiness,

Yeah right now that's the path I'm trying to take. Check off any suspect boxes ( he gets regular body work, saddle fitter was just here, diet is pretty boring but added ulcer meds) but still make him work and behave when under saddle.

He has had some more attitude- he's taken up pawing when tied. And I've had to remind him not crowd me and all that.

Whether spooking is apart of that... Is hard to tell. Because he's so bulky about it, does make me wonder if it's just a defiance of the leg. But I think having the vet to do teeth (which I know are due) Maybe check his eyes while she's there. We could pull blood work but I'm not sure where it's quite at that yet.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Exvet, one thing I've found with Lynx lately, is he seems better if I lunge him first. Not so much that he's hot and full of energy, but it really seems to help focus and take a little edge off. Just a quick w/t/c (with lots of transitions in there) seems to help. I hate to lunge much but It seems to be the lesser of the evils right now. Certainly some days I feel like he comes out more focused than others and doesn't need it but lately it's helped. Of course our ride is then shorter after any lunge work.

I've taken him around the arena to check out known spooky things but not sure that it's helped any. Honestly just keeping him a little bit off the track of spooky places and doing shoulder fore is what we do. Sometimes I have to get pretty demanding with my inside leg/whip to keep his attention past things.

I do just wonder if it's mentally and physically a lot right now. He is a little bit butt high. And I know he needs his teeth done. Part of me wonder if I should just give him a month off? Or just much shorter work? My hesitation is if that would be detrimental to his stifle. Every vet has been pretty adamant that he needs regular exercise.

[StraightForward]

From some of your other recent posts about the spooking, I was thinking ulcers, but didn't want to be "that person." If the Omeprazole doesn't make a difference, I'd ask the vet about hindgut ulcers. I have no evidence that Tesla has/had ulcers, but she tends to get tight in the rib cage and the bodyworker has mentioned that she is sore in her psoas muscles. Putting her on GutX seems to have helped, and I have also started doing some light accupressure/Masterson type bodywork with her as I saddle her up, along with SureFoot pads. What I've noticed is that she has started releasing tension on her own, much more quickly. I think she was building tension during the tacking up process, so she was primed to fight against my leg by the time I got on. I make sure I can run my hands over her ribs and introduce a little rocking motion to her body without any pissy faces or resistance - if I get that, I just continue to work on it, and sometimes end up bagging our ride, or doing a light lunge instead. I've also been feeding her Tums, which she thinks are a top treat, and who knows, maybe they are reducing stomach acid a little before work? This change in the tacking up process also helps me find where she is sore or holding tension. She was a little naughty on our Friday night ride after several really good rides - yesterday I went out and found that she was pretty touchy around her right stifle, so chances are she just got sore and needs a couple days off, maybe some stretching.

It is kind of impossible to really disentangle the physical and mental origins of behavior, because they really reinforce each other. My approach has been to go slow and as long as there is incremental improvement, just keep persisting (and of course keeping a close eye on all the things you've mentioned). Also, teaching the horse some self-management skills, so they learn they can let go of fear and tension and get back into the parasympathetic zone. I hope this gets figured out soon and that you'll do right by your boy!

[StraightForward]

To more directly answer the question in the title, I think often there is a physical reason, but it's not necessarily something "wrong" just something that needs to be worked through. Like Tesla got sore pretty easily (I only ride about 20-25 minutes and hardly any canter), and it manifested in behavior, but the answer is more fitness, and a little bit of acceptance that we work through garden variety muscle soreness. Throw in all the physical and mental changes in the maturation process, and it's an even more complicated series of behaviors with physical, but not pathological root cause.

[Tanga]

Agree with Chisamba.

Both Quilla and Quinn were doopy do and easy at 4. 5 was not so fun and both of them tried to to the spin and run (Quinn always to the left, Quilla always to the right.) 5 is not my favorite year with all of the challenging, but you find out what you really have. I'm sure weather and being inside doesn't help. Quinn's go to was spinning and trying to bolt for so long she learned pirouettes really early and stayed in them until she felt like stopping.

She seems body wise like Quinn, who is always tight. I try and he tried many things over the years and still haven't gotten it all right, but I do stretches, body work, lots of easy movement, trying different things to feed to help. Nothing has changed it, but I think some things help. She is back on magnesium again, which I think helps some. I am also trying aloe vera (from my yard) and calcium to see if that helps right now, but too soon to see for sure.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Straightforward, Lynx is always tight in his girth area too. I've been exploring with massage and stretching But I'm not sure I found the ticket yet.

Good point about physical and mental being so intertwined.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Tanga, the spin move is not fun. I'm learning to know before he does it though, so far.

Lynx seems to need constant changes in exercises. Definitely not a horse you can drill by any means. Which physically makes sense but he also figures out patterns quickly. If it's too basic, he seems to get bored quickly.

Lateral work is a life saver. He knows shoulder in, haunches in and stuff so we do a lot of throwing in different movements, especially on the long sides. I do worry that it's too much for his age but he doesn't seem to struggle. If anything more about her all we do the better.

I think he will always be hypervigilant but I don't think he needs to spook at every side of the arena, every time around. That's excessive. I don't even think he's truly that scared. Just distracted lol

[blob]

I think it's important to rule out major physical culprits--saddle, teeth, ulcers are common culprits of behavior change.

In addition, there are some other use tactics that can help asses how much is physical v something else: what happens with ground work/lunging/long-lining. This is a go to for me because I feel very confident in my lunging skills and all my horses are trained to lunge. So, if I put them on the lunge and the issue is gone than that gives me some input that likely it isn't just/primarily physical. Lunging is also helpful because I can remove various tack to also assess. Is better/different with surcingle and no saddle or with Cavesson but no bit?

Another thing I have done is to give bute or banimine for a couple days and see if there's improvement. If there is, you may not know what is hurting, but it tells you something is and that will stop me from trying to train the issue and focus first on diagnostics / rest first and foremost.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

I had a whole post get lost. Dang. He's been weird on the lunge too, but I've mostly used a bridle. I have Cavesson but fit isn't right so not helpful. But I'll try a halter.

He was better last night- both on lunge and U/S. Maybe omeprazole is helping?

I do have some banamine but I'll hold off for a few days.

[Kyras_Mom]

Deal with the physical issues as you think may be bothering him and just keep riding (judiciously of course).

I am going through the same thing with Kyra...and she ain't no young horse. She will be 20 in May . I am doing the same as you...working on what might be physical but continuing riding and changing my goals a bit. I think her mouth is bothering her so a dental is scheduled and in the meantime, I am riding her bitless. I give her a snack pre-ride and a dose of Outlast before I ride. I am not quite ready to pull the trigger on a proton pump inhibitor just yet but have a supply of Nexium which will be the next trial. Our weather is not helping. It is so schizo and typical for spring in Boise but 60 degrees one day and 40 degrees with 30mph wind the next. I think your weather is somewhat similar. Yesterday was quite windy with periodic snow squalls and as the better part of valor, I did not ride but worked her at liberty in the round pen. That was fun. I hadn't done that since I moved her. She was quite engaged and we had a nice session. Riding, I think would have been ulcer inducing...for ME.

As far as goals, I have just backed off and we are working on basics. No use trying to do anything 'fancy' when I don't have the relaxation or correct tempo. The other day, she was particularly spooky on the south side of the arena so I just abandoned that side of the arena so that I might get her to join with me a bit and not be so worried about whatever nebulous dragon she saw in the willows. I did a big trot circle with lots of changes of direction through the middle. It works on some bending and helped me maintain the tempo I wanted. We did have a couple discussions where she spooked and flung her head in the air. I just raised my hands and said fine, you want your head there fine but you are going to keep going FORWARD. By the end of the session, I could ride her on a loose rein around the entire perimeter (holding on to my oh sh** strap just in case). SF mentioned that I might check her poll and so after the RP session I noticed that she was hesitant to stretch her nose up and forward to reach a cookie. She does seem pretty tight there so I am going to work on her poll today.

I have been watching this dude on YouTube that does a lot of basic ground and saddle exercises for spookiness. His name is Ryan Rose. He seems like a good guy and nothing fru-fru or out there. I have been working on a few of those. A lot of people like Warwick Schiller.

Good luck. They can be such a puzzle.

Susan

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Kyra's_mom- well all I can hope is that once we get their teeth done that they are different horses! I do wonder about that being a big part of it. But our weather is all over the place, like yours- which doesn't help. I'm hoping that I continue to see improvement on the Omeprazole compound. If not, I also have Nexium. I'm trying not to do gastroguard, at least not without scoping. It's just so expensive.

Lynx was going to get a training ride today ( hopefully she got to him) and a lesson tomorrow. Then he gets Wednesday off. Thursday might be a ground work day. Then Friday his teeth get done. It can't get done soon enough!!

[Srhorselady]

Out of curiosity…when you bought Lynx wasn’t he living out with a small group of horses? And at your previous barn wasn’t he mostly out with “his” herd? Now at your current barn (and winter weather) he’s in a stall with regular turnout. However is he turned out with other horses? I would think a young horse used to a herd environment might be a little spookier in a non- herd environment. He doesn’t have his herd mates to give him security and confidence.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Out of curiosity…when you bought Lynx wasn’t he living out with a small group of horses? And at your previous barn wasn’t he mostly out with “his” herd? Now at your current barn (and winter weather) he’s in a stall with regular turnout. However is he turned out with other horses? I would think a young horse used to a herd environment might be a little spookier in a non- herd environment. He doesn’t have his herd mates to give him security and confidence.

No he was in a pen by himself and didn't get turned out with other horse's from where I bought him.

He did do a group pen when he was in training over the summer. But since September- at the new barn, goes out with a herd for most the day and lives in a solo pen with a shed. But he's next to other horses just like he was when I bought him.

I would say you were right but he's been fine the last few months except for the last week.

I'm happy to report that we were able to ride outside though for the first time in a while and he was awesome. I'm almost wondering if it is the ulcer meds or Maybe just young horse boredom and he needed to get back outside during our rides!

[Moutaineer]

As you know, Potters can be highly reactive. But, pretty much every horse in the barn, from babies to seasoned FEI level show horses, is stir-crazy after a long winter inside and, even though they are turned out all day, limited movement because of the footing in the turnouts.

We are counting the minutes to the weather being conducive to riding outdoors. We are just going to have to be really careful not to get pinged off in the excitement when we get there!

[Lipsmackerpony88]

As you know, Potters can be highly reactive. But, pretty much every horse in the barn, from babies to seasoned FEI level show horses, is stir-crazy after a long winter inside and, even though they are turned out all day, limited movement because of the footing in the turnouts.

We are counting the minutes to the weather being conducive to riding outdoors. We are just going to have to be really careful not to get pinged off in the excitement when we get there!

I'm sure that's part of it. I rode outside today, first time in two months. Lynx was very well behaved and happy. Although we did stay on just one half of the arena. For one it's just a large arena and I can't hear the instructor if I'm on the other side. And baby steps lol. The other end is the more spookier side. We will work our way over there again.