My training is staring to show progress

[Shirrine]

Due to my illness last year and slow recovery Lewyn has been brought along very slowly. Seems slow and steady does win the race. My instructor had a play with him today, Lewyn needed to be convinced that he could go longer than I have been able to keep him going.

This is me on him at canter which has taken so long to establish.

https://youtu.be/hZZAN-02bvA

Shirrine

[kande50]

First off, I want to say that he's a beautiful pony. Second, I couldn't watch either video past the first few seconds because they weren't pleasant for me to watch. Maybe they got better later on, but if you don't think that your pony has any issues with the way he's being ridden then you need to get more opinions, because IMO, your instructor is leading you down the wrong path.

And yes, that's just my opinion, but your pony was clearly indicating with his tail, which was the only body part that wasn't clamped down, that he does have issues with the way he's ridden.

[Sue B]

Kande notwithstanding...I am SO HAPPY for you Shirrine. Here's to a long and successful future for you and Llewyn. Thank you for sharing the videos. It must be so hard to get that riding seat back after what you've been through. I know I could not ride a pony so well as you two do--I don't know how pony riders do it! It is amazing to me the way your tall trainer can stay so nice and soft and centered on a horse that is so much shorter than him. I am also impressed with how tall and straight you are sitting; if it were me, i think I would be tipped quite forward. No worries, the canter will continue to improve as you regain your strength. Again, CONGRATULATIONS. Well Done!

Kande, sorry you are feeling low, but perhaps it would be better to not take it out on your fellow DDB's.

[demi]

I am happy to see you on your pony and on the training forum! Dressage is a slow process even without the unplanned disruptions! and it is encouraging to hear you say that "slow and steady" is winning the race. Please keep us updated with lots of pics and vids. Lewyn is a lucky boy to have you.

[kande50]

Kande, sorry you are feeling low, but perhaps it would be better to not take it out on your fellow DDB's.

I considered saying nothing and just scrolling on by, but then decided that it's better to say something in hopes that someone will step back and re-evaluate what's going on from their horse's perspective before buying into what their trainer is teaching them to do.

I too, listened to my trainer when I first started dressage lessons, and regret to this day that I didn't have videos to post on the internet to get feedback from those who might have been able to help accelerate my discomfort with what I was doing to my horse.

[amygdala]

i agree w/kande-- pony is btv too much, tho he looked better w/ you than he did w/your trainer

[LeoApp]

Wow he is a fancy pony! I like the way you look on him. Your trainer is a good rider. I just found myself wanting to see the pony have more stretch over his topline and more relaxation with your trainer aboard.

[Chisamba]

I actually preferred the way he was going for you, imho, ( and i often disagree with Kande, so she should expect it) his tail was quite relaxed and stretched when you rode him,) I think his topline was a little more elastic and he was happier in his work.

I actually thought he was struggling with the weight of your trainer a bit, slapping his hind feet down, not elastic, and hes he was quite compressed. However the pony was very gracious in his response to the lateral work and the short rein.

[kande50]

I actually preferred the way he was going for you, imho, ( and i often disagree with Kande, so she should expect it) his tail was quite relaxed and stretched when you rode him,) I think his topline was a little more elastic and he was happier in his work.

I actually thought he was struggling with the weight of your trainer a bit, slapping his hind feet down, not elastic, and hes he was quite compressed. However the pony was very gracious in his response to the lateral work and the short rein.

I too, thought he went better for the OP than the trainer, and went better in the beginning than he did after he'd gone around numerous times. The part that bothered me was how long he was pushed to keep going without a break given the amount of weight he was carrying, and then to have a rider who was way too big for him climb on and use the spurs even more seemed not only unfair, but unwise.

Not that I have any issue with a horse carrying weight, but just think that if a someone is going to ride a small horse (relative to their own size) then the amount of work the horse is expected to do should be adjusted accordingly.

I also think that if a horse starts flipping his tail when the spurs are used then the trainer needs to figure out why, not only for the horse's sake, but to prevent it from becoming a habit.

[Josette]

Ditto - with what Chisamba said. I like your riding much better than your trainer with the way your pony goes more relaxed. I also agree the pony is struggling under the heavier trainer and do not care for his BHV work.

[amygdala]

the shank on the curb bit is horizontal much of the time, which give the impression that the pony is being ridden on the curb, rather than the snaffle. maybe the tack needs some adjustment?

[Shirrine]

Ther were reasons for the way he was being ridden. Because of my weakness he has been backing off on me so he was being riddne through that backing off. It is only recently that the canter has come together at all. As for over riding him, the video is editted so this is only showing him working not resting. I did notice the curb, the chain was too loose. Yes the is tension, this is his 5th time in the double. He is opinionate little soul and gives his opinion when things aren't as he wants.
Interesting that one of my recent tests stated at the bottom of the test "a pleasure to judge."

Shirrine

[Shirrine]

I have removed the vid of my instructor on him as I don't think it fair on him. He was doing what I asked of him. I am disappointed that he has been vilified on here and I am thinking that putting anything here is probably not what I should do in future. Lewyn is my priority always. He is not worked every dya because he does have to carry weight, his back is checked regularly (no issued found from carrying weight). It has taken me a lot of courage to be seen in public on him and only done so due to friends talking me into it. Thanks for taking me down a few notches.

[kande50]

Thanks for taking me down a few notches.

The intent was not to take you down a few notches, but rather to possibly inspire you to think about what your pony's experiences may be like. If you're confident that he's fine and that the kind of work you're doing is fair to him, then those who question your choices should be of no interest to you.

And yes, I might have been less than thrilled if I'd posted video of some of my dressage lessons and others had questioned what I was doing, but I also would have recognized that it wasn't about me, because the concern was for my horse.

[Shirrine]

I don't mind constryctive critisism but this is not it.

Second, I couldn't watch either video past the first few seconds because they weren't pleasant for me to watch.

I took a second look to see if I had his head on his chest or that I was bouncing or maybe my hands were all over the place but no all I see is someone who is so pleased with being able to even do this after the last 18 months and a pony who is for the most part trying his heart out.
Yep he is not perfect, he has just started this sort of work and being Lewyn he has an opinion about it but I still don't understand your horror, please explain.

Shirrine

[kande50]

Yep he is not perfect, he has just started this sort of work and being Lewyn he has an opinion about it but I still don't understand your horror, please explain.

[/quote]

Absolutely no horror, and I too, love his canter. He looks like such a beautiful, cooperative, sweet pony who wants nothing more than to be able to do what you want him to do.

My concern is that you may be squelching your own reservations about what you're expecting from him because you're listening to those who don't have any concerns about whether they're demanding too much too soon?

My own opinion is that horses should have opinions because they're the only ones who know what they're experiencing, and we, as owners and trainers, should be listening closely to those opinions.

So if Lewyn starts telling you that he's tired and needs a break, IMO the last thing he should be getting is repeated spurring. It would be one thing to urge him to go around one more time to help build his endurance, but to keep demanding more and more and more just seems like a very bad idea to me.

Something I'm curious about though, is where you feel Lewyn is in his training? IOW, why the double?

[Chisamba]

I actually think, Kande, your comments were nasty without being helpful. Also obviously somewhat untruthful. Clearly you watched more than a few seconds from your detailed and repeated commentary. Once you start nasty its hard to back pedal to pretending to be helpful.

Not being perfect myself, i apologise to the rest of ddbb for taking it personal .

[kande50]

I actually think, Kande, your comments were nasty without being helpful. Also obviously somewhat untruthful. Clearly you watched more than a few seconds from your detailed and repeated commentary. Once you start nasty its hard to back pedal to pretending to be helpful.

Anyone can take comments any way they want, but because I think the OP cares about her pony and is being led astray I decided it was worth a shot, even if those who want to take comments as nasty and unhelpful will continue to do so.

Remember, we all stayed silent to protect a young rider's feelings when most of us could clearly see what was causing the horse's issues, and things did not end up well for her, or her horse. Not that any of us would likely have been able to change the outcome, but what if the comments actually did support what she suspected and inspired her to make changes?

If my comments had been ignored I would have spared myself watching the videos because I could tell from the first part that I was not going to enjoy them. But, if there was going to be further discussion of what I think is an important issue, then of course I went back and watched them.

[Chisamba]

Okay, kande, since you are so concerned about stopping people from doing real damage, riding an upside down horse in a passagy trot, for years is doing real skeletal and impact damage . It causes spinal wear and tear, stifle stresses and front foot impact damage.

Probably a lot worse than a pony carrying a trainer who is a bit bigger than its regular rider for a few minutes.

Do you care? No
Are you going to change anyrhing ? Not likely
It is my emphatic belief that you harm your horse a lot more with your inability to allow him to engage and stretch and elasticise than Shirrines old school prep for Pony rail classes. JMHO, ( well possibly not humble) JMO.

[Sue B]

Hey, don't forget Shirrine, there are people like me who are applauding you and your trainer.

I again repeat, I think Shirrine's trainer is giving Llewyn a very tactful ride, especially for one who towers over his mount as he does. I suspect the shank of the double is "horizontal" because there is too much "play" in the bit, not because he is being cranked on. Look at pony's face (oh wait, you can't, because shirrine wisely removed the video,) he is not grumpy or upset looking.

And Shirrine, again I say, you did an admirable job riding Llewyn and things will only get better as your strength returns. I have taken a beating or two on the old UDBB, but I always consider the source and consider what I know about my horses. In the furutre, post your vids in the Challenge thread where trolls won't attack.

[kande50]

It is my emphatic belief that you harm your horse a lot more with your inability to allow him to engage and stretch and elasticise than Shirrines old school prep for Pony rail classes. JMHO, ( well possibly not humble) JMO.

The reason I think that if you're right and I do ride my horse upside down rather than in a natural frame, the reason he'll never end up damaged is because I don't ride him hard enough to damage him no matter what positions I ride him in. And the reason I take it easy on him (other than because he has a club foot) is because I'm not in any way convinced that riding a horse "biomechanically correctly" in any way protects him from damage if trainers don't know when to give the horse a break from what they've decided is biomechanically correct riding.

Nor do I believe that riding horses against the bit is in any way kind or effective, no matter what kind of spin those who do it want to try to put on it.

Even the odg's, who mostly wrote about training when they were older and had spent their lifetimes exploring these issues, seem to unanimously agree that the aids should be light, yet for some reason we still see horses struggling to move because they're so crammed against the bit, and we still hear about how it's okay because the rider isn't pulling back, or the contact is elastic, or the contact can get strong as long as it gets lighter eventually.

[demi]

Yes, Shirrine, there are those of us who think you are doing good by your pony. I get that those vids show us just a very brief time in pony's training and I think it's just exactly what he needs at this time.

I reallllllly hope you continue to share pictures of his progress because I think he will soon be the model dressage pony that we all love to see. I gain a lot of encouragement from watching the day to day progress of horses. We have a nice variety of horses on the BB at this time and each horse and rider team has it's own special appeal. From our FEI competition horse to our leased former school horse mare, they are all wonderful.

Every picture I can remember seeing of you on your mounts has always shown a horse slighlty in front of the vertical and in no way compressed against the bit. You always present a lovely picture of harmony and ease. Didn't you have a bay or dark brown gelding horse a while back? I remember some beautiful dressage pictures of a horse and I think it was you riding him.

[orono]

Shirrine, you and your pony look wonderful. And your riding doesn't look in any way that you feel tired or weak.

Also, if someone isn't impressed with what they see they can either make a gentle suggestion, or just not post.

[Shirrine]

If anyone thinks this pony is pounded you couldn't be futher from the truth. I suffer from extreme fatigue which means that he does not get ridden everyday and at the most 1/2 with breaks. A once in a blue moon being expected to work will not hurt him.
As for him working on the bit I thought that was the aim. Obviously I am wrong and should just throw the reins at him. He wasn't just cantering around doing nothing. He was being asked to to counter bend and bend to get him to release his poll and back.

Shirrine

[Rosie B]

Shirrine, I'm sorry you've received some rather harsh criticism of your, and your trainer's riding, as well as of your lovely pony's way of going.

I thought some of the comments were in extremely poor taste given that you didn't ASK for a critique and were clearly posting because you felt proud of the progress. I really feel for you, I know it can feel positively soul crushing when you get harsh feedback, even from complete strangers.

Please don't let one poster prevent you from posting more of your lovely pics and videos. I have always enjoyed them. You're a nice rider, and your horses are also lovely. I too remember the photos and videos you used to post of Daniel, and I hope you continue to post more of your pony's work in future.

All the best and happy riding to you.

[Tsuy]

.

[Moutaineer]

I think he looks great. He's forward and enthusiastic, and carrying himself.

[Moutaineer]

(And that's a bit of a broad brush, Tsuy.)

[musical comedy]

Well well well - nothing has changed here it seems
When I saw the FB post I thought The big nasty K was back
But it was the 'other K'
Sad that on a dressage board this person has been allowed to spruik nasty rubbish that she knows nothing about.
I also used to post videos and stopped when I realised the calibre and ability of the peeps criticising.
Shirrine - enjoy your riding - your horse - and your health - well done of achieving what you want with Lewin

Good advice is -You cannot possibly be insulted by someone you do not respect

Actually Tsuy, up until this thread, there has been nothing by complementary posts. Everyone looks lovely.

I considered saying nothing and just scrolling on by, but then decided that it's better to say something in hopes that someone will step back and re-evaluate what's going on from their horse's perspective before buying into what their trainer is teaching them to do.
I too, listened to my trainer when I first started dressage lessons, and regret to this day that I didn't have videos to post on the internet to get feedback from those who might have been able to help accelerate my discomfort with what I was doing to my horse.

:As most here know, my previous posting style was to tell it like I think it is. I used to think like you Kande, that maybe by being brutally honest, things would improve for the horse's sake. That's unlikely to happen. That's especially not what this small group of comrades appreciate. They want the 'you look lovely' comments.

Anyway to get back to this video, I did not see the trainer riding. I thought that the riding was quite good and the pony went well.

As for the double, am I correct that in Australia they have classes that are not dressage, but the horses go in double bridles? Isn't that the kind of class Shirrine competes in?

[Shirrine]

I do both, showing and dressage and yes he was in the double for showing although he wasn't put in it until I felt he was ready. He is competing level 1 I think it is but working 2-3. He has his problems like any horse but I would not do what he wasn't ready for. He won on his work last Friday in the double, he was lovely.
He is winning in both disciplines although they have been few and far between, I have only just started competing again after years due to my health.

Shirrine

[Rosie B]

MC, I don't think it's entirely fair to say that this group only appreciates comments of the "you look lovely" variety. There have been lots of instances that I have read (here) where people have very politely offered suggestions that have been well received and at the very least considered and politely discussed.

Leaving all question of the credibility of the poster giving feedback aside, the first post in which feedback was given was totally inappropriate in my mind for two reasons:
1) Shirrine didn't ask for feedback, and 2) it was unnecessarily harsh.

In my opinion, if you wouldn't say it in person to one of your friends or peers, you shouldn't say it online. But I'm probably in the minority with that opinion.

Shirrine, I am not surprised he is winning in both disciplines. He is lovely and you both look great together.

[Shirrine]

Before about 6 weeks ago Lewyn and I had not done a dressage test since he was 4yo, he is now 8yo. And before last week it had been 2 years since I had ridden in a show. He has won at both in the last 6 weeks and loked after me for all of them. He is very special, so special I have bought back his sone who is 6 inches taller at14.2hh.

Shirrine

[kande50]

As most here know, my previous posting style was to tell it like I think it is. I used to think like you Kande, that maybe by being brutally honest, things would improve for the horse's sake. That's unlikely to happen. That's especially not what this small group of comrades appreciate. They want the 'you look lovely' comments.

I wasn't even close to brutally honest because I'm aware of what the culture is here, but I learned my lesson after the last time I failed to speak up when I should have.

Yes, there can be huge resistance to any hint of advocating for horses, which I think is because if someone rides that way themselves then they're obviously okay with riding that way, so will feel defensive when anyone criticizes what they do. I think it's because people who use horses realize that PETA is out there so they're already on the defensive, and that's what fuels the intense reactions to anyone who thinks animals deserve better.

I remember the last attempt by animal advocates to improve the lives of carriage horses, and the resistance from those I knew who drove, and was unpleasantly surprised at how little things had changed when the issue came up again recently.

Personally, I think it's fine to work animals, but I also think that many horses suffer under harsh working conditions simply because we all grew up seeing horses used that way so have never stepped back and honestly evaluated what it is that we do to horses, and what the experience might be like for them.

As for the double, am I correct that in Australia they have classes that are not dressage, but the horses go in double bridles? Isn't that the kind of class Shirrine competes in?

That's the part I missed: that this kind of riding is a thing in some circles, and that the over bent, held together with the curb, canter around and around is the way it is done in those circles. I watched some videos of pony showing in Australia, and while I didn't see ponies that seemed to be struggling as much as the OP's pony was, it was similar.

[kande50]

In my opinion, if you wouldn't say it in person to one of your friends or peers, you shouldn't say it online. .

I think it's a little different online because it's so easy to block others, which frees posters up to say what they really think because it puts the responsibility to censor free speech on the readers rather than the speakers.

I'm not so sure that posters are any different online than they are with their friends and peers, but the way things are said face to face just makes it much clearer what was meant, and that leaves much less room for extrapolation and interpretation.

And as far as qualifications to question the way horses are treated, do we really want to look to those who may be part of the problem to decide whether there's a problem?

Another issue is that if feedback isn't allowed unless asked for, then why is there so much feedback? IOW, are positive comments not considered feedback?

I think if someone doesn't want any feedback at all, or wants to control what kind of feedback, then they need to state that upfront and/or inform others that they don't want any more of the kind of feedback that was offered. But in most cases if someone posts videos they do usually seem to want feedback, even if the feedback they get isn't what they were hoping to hear.

[kande50]

If anyone thinks this pony is pounded you couldn't be futher from the truth. I suffer from extreme fatigue which means that he does not get ridden everyday and at the most 1/2 with breaks. A once in a blue moon being expected to work will not hurt him.

I think that's probably true, although I also think that horses do suffer from lactic acid buildup in their muscles and that it can become quite painful and may be responsible for at least some of the aversives that contribute to shutting them down. So it is possible that pushing horses to do too much too soon can actually back fire, and end up making them less willing to work for longer because they remember how unpleasant/painful it was the last time.

As for him working on the bit I thought that was the aim. Obviously I am wrong and should just throw the reins at him. He wasn't just cantering around doing nothing. He was being asked to to counter bend and bend to get him to release his poll and back.

It's not all or none (strong contact vs no contact), but what I prefer to see (if I'm going to enjoy watching a horse work) is ease. I realize that training isn't going to be all butterflies and rainbows, but neither should it be spurring and tail flipping, because when it comes to that I think we've gone beyond kind, effective training and into the bullying kind.

And I suffer from the fatigue problem too, which IMO, has a silver lining because it's what helped me develop more patience, because there's nothing like experiencing that kind of fatigue for oneself to make one more willing to entertain the idea that a horse could be experiencing the same.

[Shirrine]

When he is light he is lovely, when he isn't he he isn't like any horse. We were working on lightness. It is a shame I got none of his trot work which is as light as you can wish. Canter is a work in progress.
To make the assumptions you have made and still make despite being told otherwise then it show a closed mind and not a constructive mind.

Shirrine

[Shirrine]

Oh as for the spurring, I just watched the vid of my Instructor riding him and the only way he could have been spurring is if he lifted his heal which he did not do. An occasional touch but no way is he spurring him. I go to him because he is light on a horse especially with youngsters.

Shirrine

[capstone]

I think you and your pony look lovely. I am happy for you and your progress.

It really is pointless, understandable but pointless, to continue to engage with Kande. There will be no moving her from her perception once it was set. Everything that has come after is just rationalization/justification, to her.

[kande50]

When he is light he is lovely, when he isn't he he isn't like any horse. We were working on lightness. It is a shame I got none of his trot work which is as light as you can wish. Canter is a work in progress.
To make the assumptions you have mad and still make despite being told otherwise then it show a closed mind and not a constructive mind.

Something else to consider is that many trainers feel that the spur should not be used for the purpose of backing up the "go" aids, as that's what the whip is for. I think at least part of the reason for that is because it's too easy to overuse the spurs (keep them on for too long/use them too often/skip the other aids and go directly to the spur), and that is much less likely to happen with the whip.

I feel the same way about the curb bit.

I noticed that most of the ponies in the videos I watched were shown in a full bridle, and wondered if there were penalties for showing in a snaffle, or if that's just the way it's done?

[kande50]

Oh as for the spurring, I just watched the vid of my Instructor riding him and the only way he could have been spurring is if he lifted his heal which he did not do. An occasional touch but no way is he spurring him. I go to him because he is light on a horse especially with youngsters.

I wasn't really trying to figure out how hard anyone was using the spurs, but was just looking at Lewyn's tail because I was interested in how the pony felt about what was happening to him. My horse is very expressive with his tail too, which I think may be one of the better indicators of how he actually feels.

[kande50]

It really is pointless, understandable but pointless, to continue to engage with Kande. There will be no moving her from her perception once it was set. Everything that has come after is just rationalization/justification, to her.

So Shirrine, even if you're interested in the discussion you really should stop because someone else isn't.

[amygdala]

in the past, it was assumed that if video was posted in the training forum, comments/criticism was wanted.
if not, the video got posted in the observation lounge.

imo, the trainer'video was a perfect example of 'how to create a leg-mover' --restrict the horse in front, then use leg/spur to energise the back end.
(this is also known as riding front-to-back.)
held in that frame, the horse can only move its legs; forget about the shoulders lifting, and/or energy coming from the back and over the topline.

and it will probably be rewarded in the show ring

[kande50]

and it will probably be rewarded in the show ring

That made me laugh, even though it's probably not funny because riding horses that way may be much harder on them. Or maybe it isn't that much harder on them and we just think it must be because that's not the way the rules say it should be done?

[amygdala]

i dunno-- i think being ridden or driven is hard on them-- that's why they have to TRAINED to accept all the stuff we 'ask' of them...
on the othe hand, my 2 retired guys seem to miss having a job.
so i guess It Depends

saddleseat horses are trained somewhat similarly-- rolled up in front, hollowed back, trailing hocks--and some of them live a long time....

[kande50]

i dunno-- i think being ridden or driven is hard on them-- that's why they have to TRAINED to accept all the stuff we 'ask' of them...
on the othe hand, my 2 retired guys seem to miss having a job.
so i guess It Depends

What they'd probably like is an easy job with lots of treats.

I think work can be very hard on horses, but trying to sort out what kind of work is more likely to help them stay sound vs what kind will break them down faster can be a quagmire. So many believe so many different things about what is biomechanically correct and incorrect, but there doesn't seem to be much actual evidence to back up those beliefs.

saddleseat horses are trained somewhat similarly-- rolled up in front, hollowed back, trailing hocks--and some of them live a long time....

Maybe because living a long time and staying sound are two different things?

Saddleseat horses do work in what is probably a terrible posture, but they do most of their work on straight lines and wide turns, which could be why they aren't all dead lame by the time they're 5?

[Ryeissa]

You have a lovely pony and I am so happy for you!

[Ryeissa]

It really is pointless, understandable but pointless, to continue to engage with Kande. There will be no moving her from her perception once it was set. Everything that has come after is just rationalization/justification, to her.

So Shirrine, even if you're interested in the discussion you really should stop because someone else isn't.

you are just being a jerk here, might be your aspergers coming into play so I will give you the benefit of the doubt, but still.

Your videos show a very unique riding style, and I know you are ok with that but Shrinne has chosen a different route and needs to be respected.

[kande50]

Your videos show a very unique riding style, and I know you are ok with that but Shrinne has chosen a different route and needs to be respected.

Y'know how Aspergers/Autistic people often seem to think they understand animals better than the more socially skilled....?

I make no claims to being able to "read" animals better than others, and may not even be on the spectrum, but the reason I ride the way I do is because that's the method that has evolved out of my interactions with horses.

I understand that others' interactions have been different, but do not in any way understand how they came up with such a different perception of what they think is fair to their horses? I have my theories, but of course there's no way for me to know.

And the fact is, when I see an unfamiliar riding style that I haven't yet become at least a little bit hardened to, it shocks me, which is probably because I spend a lot of time in a sheltered environment where no one treats horses that way.

[Beorn]

What the heck is happening here?

Shirrine, you don't know me from a hole in a wall, but I love hearing and seeing your progress despite some heart-breaking experiences, and you're four-footed friends are stunning beyond compare. GOOD FOR YOU. And Lewyn is a cracking fantastic pony, which you don't need anyone to tell you. Not that it matters, and I never saw the video with your trainer, but I see a horse making progress in his training. He appears happy and content with you as a rider - a bit tired in that video, and ducking a bit behind the contact as he loses his forwardness, but perhaps that's to be expected at this stage.

Please keep posting. I look forward to it.

[Ryeissa]

Y'know how Aspergers/Autistic people often seem to think they understand animals better than the more socially skilled....?
....
And the fact is, when I see an unfamiliar riding style that I haven't yet become at least a little bit hardened to, it shocks me, which is probably because I spend a lot of time in a sheltered environment where no one treats horses that way.

you didn't get my post, did you? you hurt Sherrine and didn't seem to get that. I wasn't talking about horses at all.

This isn't your thread, so please just be done and let's get this back to the positive place we have established over the last year, ok?
Sorry Shrrine. you didn't deserve that