July/August Perspiration and Progress Thread

[Rosie B]

This is a bit of a tangent but I used to do a lot of rock climbing, and in that world (at least around here) there are 3 types of fun.

Type 1 fun is the breezy carefree in the moment "WOW this is fun!" feeling.
Type 2 fun is too intense to be fun in the moment, but once you are finished or back down to the ground you think "OK that was AWESOME!"
Type 3 fun is so terrifying and/or intense that it is not fun at the moment, and there are no feelings of enjoyment after you've finished, either. It's only after significant time has passed (a year or more) that you look back and think "Yeah, that was fun! I want to do that again!"

And over time, your experience tends to shift your perspective of what belongs in type 1, 2, and 3 fun. Things that used to be type 2 become type 1, and type 3s become type 2 or even 1. And things that are extremely demanding, challenging, and rewarding, are all considered fun.

So for me, dressage is absolutely and unequivocally fun. When I am schooling, it is usually type 2, with moments of type 1 in there as I pause to enjoy and appreciate the moments where things are going really well.

And that's probably waaaaay deeper than anyone ever wanted to go into the topic of 'What does FUN mean to Rosie B?'

[Ryeissa]

I think for me concentration and growth-learning can be "fun" but it's not as lightherted as say a funny movie.

I ride like shit when I get too serious, I have to instill a sense of some sort of looseness and playfulness.

I personally don't think it's good to ride dressage in frame 5 days a week- not good for the necks and backs if there is no change up, and how boring is that?

Rosie- I thought of the green-yellow-red ideas of the comfort zone- green means we are not challenging ourselves. Yellow is where we are at the end/reach a bit, but done in a way that allows us to process and feel safe. Red is the pure panic state of mind were we can't learn.

I thought of the clinic ideas about "paining in later" since sometimes I stay too much in perfect zone (BASICS ARE PARAMOUNT! MUST HAVE SUPPLENESS) but today I was able to use that idea in my riding. Part of my ride was not as I liked, but I focused on progress in another more achievable area, and will come back to the harder aspect next time, It is something that should not have been hard for us, but it's where we have not put focus so it's rusty.

[piedmontfields]

Rosie, I like your summary and am familiar with those zones from even limited climbing experience! I think most of my Zone 3 equestrian experiences have been while out fox hunting. Some of them took a few years to laugh at!

Rye, I used to ride with someone who did not understand "sketching in" a movement. They also avoided continuing to work around an idea without perfect execution. I eventually stopped working with them because I found the perspective incredibly negative instead of developmentally aware. And of course their riding did end up stuck since they did not want to take risks or be less than perfect while learning/training--even though they were quite a talented rider.

[demi]

Rye and PF, I like that idea about "sketching in" a movement. It takes some pressure off.

I think a lot of people who are interested in dressage tend to be of a more serious nature. I know personally, that I need to balance my serious nature with a lighter look at things. I can still take things very seriously, but with horses, if I am too serious, I forget "my first love" of them. If I don't keep in mind that exhilaration I felt as a child when watching horses running in a pasture, then dressage becomes dull, just calisthenics. And the horse becomes like a robot. The exercises are absolutely necessary, but even strict dressage can be enjoyable (maybe not fun, but still very enjoyable) if it is balanced with a lighter type of riding. Like bareback!?if your lucky enough to still be able.

But back to the "sketching in" a movement thought. That way of riding dressage has a built in balance of exercise/"fun". I think of actually sketching with paper and pencil. You start making lines, and then fill in as you go along. When the drawing starts to resemble what you have in mind, then it gets "fun". Your mind goes "oh wow, look!" (well, my mind does that anyway). It isn't a "stress free, laugh and a half" sort of thing, but it's light and enjoyable, and has beauty.

Just thinking about fun and how we have a different concept of what it means...I agree very much with what Flight said; dressage is serious, but as her horse is now above 2nd level, it's easier to ride, and she thinks even more enjoyable. For me, as the horse advances, it IS more enjoyable, but I can now find that same kind of enjoyment in the riding I do while waiting for the horse to advance. I have to work at finding that enjoyment. Just contemplating that though can improve my dressage, in my opinion. Good dressage is complex. Hard to separate out the different aspects.

[khall]

I guess for me the fun is in the journey with my horses. The development of myself and them into better partners. I totally agree demi with the being too serious, it does nothing for me, ends up me being way to type A. I have to be able to laugh and feel lightness in order for my horses to reciprocate. If I get too intense, yeah they loose that spark.

Just a update here re sweltering weather: at 10 am this morning combined air temp (F) and humidity was 159, with dew point of 76. We sweat but cannot cool off because the air is saturated. I can deal with heat, it is the humidity that kills me. No way I can ask horses to work in this weather just the little bit of in hand in the barn aisle in front of my heavy duty barrel fan.

[Ryeissa]

RIot tends to get very balled up quickly, so quality needs to always be there- he is not a horse that I can ever abandon that- however- sometimes I have to allow (some) tension in as we are learning and then end on a good note/reduce tension at the end/see progress.

I think it's easier above second too, MC was wondering if I could ACTUALLY be collected and have it easier-- why yes, it is easier. Focused, yes, but a connected horse is easier to ride then a training level horse. Those are such a slog- things are more extreme in loss of balance. I still get some of that yes, but I can catch things more before they fall apart (mostly!!)

Not much new here, feeling a better outside rein connection now, so have to ride the outside of the horse more than the inside. Shoulders had been falling in so I did a lot of supporting with inside pelvis/thigh/knee.

I also have been experimenting with the alignment of the pelvis in lateral work- part for the aid, and part of my overall asymmetry. My horse can switch sides now almost off this new pelvis positioning- so that is fun--- of course this places the seatbones but I have to think about the way that my hips sit on the saddle to help prevent haunches from swinging.

[piedmontfields]

Just a update here re sweltering weather: at 10 am this morning combined air temp (F) and humidity was 159, with dew point of 76. We sweat but cannot cool off because the air is saturated. I can deal with heat, it is the humidity that kills me. No way I can ask horses to work in this weather just the little bit of in hand in the barn aisle in front of my heavy duty barrel fan.

Wow--I admit to working with those numbers fairly regularly, although it is usually a little better here in Tennessee (but it was similar when I was in NC). I do try to avoid working in the sun when the heat and humidity is high, so I'll ride late or early, or head to the woods or stick on the side of the hayfield with shade. I also take a lot more breaks in this weather.

Emi would like your arrangement with your horses, though, as you can see in this post-ride photo where she is looking especially mellow and ready for the fans.

perspiration by Emi.jpg (241.27 KiB) Viewed 27261 times

[khall]

piedmont, shade helps tremendously, unfortunately I don't have any. Not a covered arena nor any trees to ride under. Before we moved to our farm we are at now, I had a pecan grove to ride in. You could ride in the middle of the day even some of the hottest weather and still be ok. Almost always had a breeze.

Where we are now, I have wide open hay fields with very few trees and those are in difficult places and my arena, which has no shade. I really really want a covered arena!! That is why I move to the barn aisle, at least there is shade and some air movement. This summer once it hit (which was after I got back from vacation/Spain) has been so wet and humid. I just cannot cool off and it makes me cranky! Came is last night late from finishing chores just hot and cranky.

[Ryeissa]

too hot here today too, oh well! 100F with heat index. 90F is my cutoff to ride +/- a few degrees if it's a high dew point.

I have a nice indoor if I want to get out of the sun, too. Luckily my desert horse (arab X) is pretty heat tolerant but my dog had heat stroke and it was super scary so I won't take chances. Having a lighter color horse helps!

I hate riding in the hot sun, I get headaches easily.

[Kyra's Mom]

Yep, perspiring is all I have been doing lately. When it is ninety degrees by 10AM , I just can't get up to do much. I have to do chores and work the horse, spend an hour or two doing elder care for the parents and be to work by 3PM until 11:30PM. Needless to say, working the horse is what loses out. Although, thankfully (I guess), it is a dry heat .

It is supposed to cool off to highs in the mid nineties and sixties at night next week. I might be able to tolerate that better. I want to start doing a mounted walking program. I know my butt won't tolerate trot or canter yet, but I think walking would be good. I still have my saddle tricked out with Thinline pad with a V cut out the back which should help.

I don't take myself too seriously when 'doing' dressage. I enjoy putzing around with lots of different stuff...of course, in the last few years I have just not been able to ride seriously and be fit enough to do a lot of dressage work. However, even when I am working with liberty, NH stuff, or whatever I am doing, I am always attending to her balance and straightness. Heck, I even 'hitched' her up and had her drag a largish limb out of her pen (the barn owners wen't getting it done so my dear horse helped ). Through doing a lot of this type of work, her relaxation and obideience has increased a lot and when I do ask for dressage work, I have a much more willing partner. So, yes, the "fun" is in the journey...where ever it takes us.

Susan---thinking cool thoughts.

[demi]

Love "perspiration by Emi". Awwwww. She does look especially mellow!

We had a cool front! It was 101 when I went into town early afternoon, and by 5:30 it was 75!! This means the horses will have a good night's rest and I plan to ride Rocky in the morning. I am so looking forward to it.

Susan, I am really enjoying Karen Rohlf's stuff! I am amazed at how her stuff resonates with me. Her attitude is that which I strive for in dressage. Yes, I want correctness, and yes I want long lines and pretty position, but first I want to be good, close friends with my mares. I am reading an essay (or something to that effect) by her at the moment, and when I finish I'll watch another video from her library. I think this will color my attitude in the right way to have a good ride on Rocky in the morning.

hoping to get past this heat and into some "real" dressage soon.

[Kyra's Mom]

I am glad you like Karen's info. I was riding very angrily at times before I started her program. Kyra is reactive and you know, when she spooks at the same bush for the hundredth time....I would just get angry with her and not understand WHY she felt the need. Not beating on her or anything but just angry that she couldn't hold herself together past an object we have gone by several times and why do we have to do this song and dance every damned ride? So far, that has been my biggest nugget is controlling myself and adjusting my attitude. It makes a world of difference and Kyra is a lot less reactive now. Much less spooking (at this one particular place) and when she does, I can usually laugh at her now instead of yelling at her.

At least my thinking cool thoughts worked for you .

Susan

[Borrowed Freedom]

So got a physio out this week for Delilah as my instructor picked up she was pushing out her left hind on the right rein. Physio picked up that she was a bit tight in her left lower back and also gave me exercises to do with her as her right hind is weaker but other than that is super impressed with her overall. My lesson on Friday we did some jumping as my instructor wanted to work on Delilah really pushing from behind in a fun way.

Even though my plan is not to do serious jumping, I must admit that Delilah definitely has some talent for jumping and she definitely loves it. We're planning on jumping her in lessons once a month as it definitely helps Delilah with becoming more forward-going and my instructor firmly believes jumping helps with improving lightness in the contact.

[Ryeissa]

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[Dresseur]

Ok. So, another few days of riding and learning. Turns out I went overboard on outside leg as I did not get great reviews on my last rides. Basically, I was masking a lack of give on the inside rein by driving around too much with the outside. I was told that first and foremost, the horse should softly yield to the inside rein - basically follow the inside rein (whether with slight flexion or a bit more bend for say am 8 meter volte). By driving too much with the outside leg, the horse was able to fake a give on the inside rein rather than me feeling a yield and rewarding that. I'm hoping that this next "feel" report is better in terms of that.

The biggest thing though is that we really, really tore apart the changes. I've been successfully getting lines of 2's here and there. Not reliably, but enough times that I have the right canter in my head, and I have the rhythm down. So, in other words, count is not an issue. But, I've continued to be frustrated by my hip jumping to the side, particularly in the right to left change and by the neck swinging and crookedness that I seem to produce in a horse that has changes so straight that you can practically roll a ball between her legs as she changes. So, we started doing single changes. All seemed fine on the surface. So we went tempi changes on the wall - cue issues. So, we did a serpentine pattern, no neck swinging, and the changes were straight... but my hip was still jumping slightly. I complained again that I thought there was something wrong so I was told to drop my stirrups and was told "if you are jumping your hip that much - you will fall off." So, I didn't fall off, and the feel was much different. Unfortunately, now there is a new issue - that left to right change is suddenly sticky. But, my hip DID NOT jump, and my shoulders were good, and the canter DID NOT get away from me. Turns out... I'm standing slightly in my stirrups - basically using them when the going gets tough. It's enough to lift me slightly out of the saddle and allow my hip to move. So, no stirrups for me in the canter. I should be groaning... but I'm so excited. This feels like part of an answer!

[Ponichiwa]

Just a update here re sweltering weather: at 10 am this morning combined air temp (F) and humidity was 159, with dew point of 76. We sweat but cannot cool off because the air is saturated. I can deal with heat, it is the humidity that kills me. No way I can ask horses to work in this weather just the little bit of in hand in the barn aisle in front of my heavy duty barrel fan.

Wow--I admit to working with those numbers fairly regularly, although it is usually a little better here in Tennessee (but it was similar when I was in NC). I do try to avoid working in the sun when the heat and humidity is high, so I'll ride late or early, or head to the woods or stick on the side of the hayfield with shade. I also take a lot more breaks in this weather

Same story for me here. Tx gulf coast area-- 9 months of the year is > 159 temperature + humidity. My winter warmup is very different than my summer one. Lots of trotting in the winter, lots of walking in shoulder in, halfpass, transitions between collected and extended walk, etc. in the summer.

PS: you should probably bottle Perspiration by Emi. Suggested retail: $150

Kiwi is on an upward trajectory. She's now the herd manager of 3 pony/small horse mares. We had a sudden, violent storm blow through and Kiwi led all the mares back to the barn and into their stalls. She's loving this leadership role.

It's paying dividends in the under saddle work, too. True to my goals, I've been touching on the flying changes in every working ride (trail rides not included), and at various points in the work. The other day, I tossed in some flying changes earlyish in the warmup without issue. Things are progressing nicely.

[Sue B]

Well, I did not get to ride at. all. last week or even this weekend. Work, kid and weather seem to be conspiring against me lately. The only positive thing I got done was both horses got trimmed and Tio got shoes put on his front feet so I can jump and ride him out more. When I got him at 2 years old he had really crummy feet--long toes, thin soles, shelly walls, underslung heels--so much so that I almost didn't buy him. Now at 6 years old he has thick soles, tough walls and beautiful angles; all the result of good barefoot trimming and 24/7 pasture life I guess. Still, his feet aren't as tough as Rudy's and he appreciates shoes as the summer wears on. I can't wait to ride him!

So far as whether or not dressage should be fun...well yeah or I wouldn't be doing it all the years. Rudy is now pretty much 3rd level and he is a blast to ride and dance with. I agree that the higher the levels go, the more fun they are, but I think they also take so much more "strength" to ride well. I have to pay much more attention to my core strength and overall fitness to ride Rudy well, and I notice that, when the ride is over, I am drenched with sweat and tired even though, while riding, it didn't feel like work at all! I suppose that is because everything is about small muscle movements and maintaining softness and relaxation in both of us. Sometimes, it is hard for me to quit while we're ahead because this work is so much fun, but I know if it is that much work for me, it must be at least that much for the horse too.

Dresseur and Rye...I find that the no stirrup work really helps me stay in the middle of the horse and be symmetrical. For some reason I notice asymmetry in both myself and the horse more quickly when my stirrups are dropped.

[piedmontfields]

Glad "Perspiration by Emi" hit a note Ponichiwa, given that any time Emi has a need it is $200, let's start it there for retail. Please congratulate Kiwi on the promotion ("Management by Kiwi").

I honestly was planning to go back to no stirrup work for our arena day Sunday, but there was a *new* *mare* *in* *the* *ring* (Human: Emi, this mare is not new--she moved in 2 weeks ago and lives in the next paddock. Emi: I have no idea what this mare knows about carting humans around. It could be wild. We should proceed with caution. I will keep my neck and back tight so that I can keep an eye on any shenanigans.) I will go back to this, as I just plain ride better without stirrups and benefit from the feeling inspiration.

To everyone, I appreciate the cautions on the weather. Today we did a nice walking hacking through woods and shade---Emi barely broke a sweat--and was happy at our easy explores (We saw a grey fox! And two deer and three turkeys.). Susan, I would love to live in dry heat. I would call E TN a puddling amount of humidity---nothing like Savannah GA for example, which is a true swamp! But brutal if you haven't "done humidity" before.

[khall]

ARGH!! It was a really nice cooler cloudy morning, but I already had the vet scheduled for dentals!! We got done and then it got hot again when the sun came back out. Sigh at least the vet did not melt nor did we have to break out the big fan to keep her cool doing teeth. She hates to do teeth in the summer.

piedmont, yes the "done humidity" thing, middle GA is a pro at the humidity! It makes it feel so much hotter in the summer and colder in the winter. I have to say this is the first summer in a long time (the summer I was heavily pregnant/foaled out Aug 9:) that I have skipped riding. One summer I could not ride my mare Gallie, she could not handle the heat that year, but I have always kept Rip going for the most part. I have found though that I have more trouble dealing with the heat/humidity as I get older, the dry heat not as much of a problem.

Stay cool all, keep on posting!

[kande50]

I have found though that I have more trouble dealing with the heat/humidity as I get older

I'm now the fair weather rider I used to think I'd never become. Course it is much easier to be a fair weather rider now that I no longer have to spend most of the fair weather at work!

[Flight]

So today I go and have my knee tinkered with which will mean no more riding for at least a few months!
I've stayed busy doing things, so thought I'd share some pics.

Firstly here's a frosty, winter pic since the weather is sounding a bit too hot for some of you at the moment:



A did another working equitation clinic and Ding is doing so well, hoping to come back and start competing when my knee has healed.



Did a little xc clinic with the big horse. He was really good, but I have to learn to let him go (he feels so long and unco) and not get popped out of the saddle.


(Will add some more next post as this limits to 3 urls)

[Flight]

And my 'last ride' on Ding, I went for a hoon around the local riding grounds! I was riding one handed with a selfie stick, so it may make you a little sea sick! Might need more practice doing that

https://youtu.be/r64Z3nZ--nk

[StraightForward]

Great pics Flight. Jingling for an uncomplicated surgery, quick recovery and getting back in the saddle soon!

[Moutaineer]

Ditto straightforward, Flight! Please keep us posted as to how you are going along!

Not much exciting going on here. Walker continues to get fitter and stronger, I'm now taking him down to the barn a few times a week and being civilized. We are learning to canter again. Riding up here on the mountain has been severely curtailed by the arrival of an errant black bear, of all things. Really, if it's not one thing its another this year!

I got talked into riding in a clinic next Saturday which will be good for both of us if it doesn't kill us. Trainer gave me a talking to in order to help me get out of my funk and get me back to work... Whatever happens, I'm going to need to be riding fit at some point to deal with Laddie when he's eventually back under saddle. She's right, of course. I nearly expired riding in the heat this afternoon and then handwalking. I've got to get back in shape!

Laddie is walking fine in hand, not doing anything else with him at the moment. Last stem cell treatment next week, and then we just wait and see. it's going to be a year, I'm sure.

Barn situation is getting potentially complicated. The last thing I want to have to do is move a convalescing horse, but I'm looking around for options, sigh. I hope it all blows over and we can at least get the winter out of this place. 10 minutes from home is pretty darned good.

[greenholmeshandy]

I toyed with not doing an update but finally succumbed...so apoligies here is another long one from me.I have had a funny time with Pony and not been terribly happy, facebook friends are probably bored stiff with my whinges/rants on this topic. It came to a head in a lesson where I upset pony and instructor by losing my rag about lack of progress and was in tears that night. I have been quite concerned about my extreme ups and downs and now realise by looking at my diary that they are monthly mood swings - Im post menopause so didn't expect that (has anyone else experienced the same post menopause?)!

Anyway, I decided to give it another try and thought about what was going wrong. Lack of straightness, going up to higher level affiliated prelim in a long arena in a space of six months on a pony who isn't really established at prelim level and losing sight of what my goals for the competitions are I think my main issues. I concentrated on straightness and no canter work when schooling last week and of we trundled on Saturday to Crowwood which is a lovely venue, well organised and very friendly staff, for their annual Festival of Dressage. The we being me, my 78 year old anti-horses mum and my 12 year old son plus the pony. Before I went I wrote down my goals for the day, I focused on:

Remember test without a reader ( rehearsed it in my mind all the week leading up to competition)
Have a proper contact with pony working into it
straightness
keep relaxed (me and pony)

Pony worked in beautifully, in we went into the test arena and she was a little star. The judges comments were very encouraging and this is the first sheet where every second comment isn't along the lines of "nose poking needs to work into a contact/need consistent contact" , the final comment at the bottom started "wow what a lovely partnership", I was quite astonished. We also placed second on 68.91% the winner being a tiny welsh section A that could have fitted whilst ridden under the tummy of the third horse.

Just as I untacked and went for a brew the organiser asked what other classes I was doing and when I said none, he said we have had some one drop out of the next class get tacked up I will get a reader for you. So much to Shandys disgust back on went the tack and of we went again. Not quite as good a test for me due to having to concentrate on what the reader was saying as I really only had a glance at the test sheet a few minutes before going in but more nice comments and no adverse ones about contact other than nose swinging occasionally which is down to me I think. Came joint third as well on 68.47% .

Aim now is to focus on straightness, get canter on both leads re-established and work at prelim level established before doing more affiliated prelims. I watched a very good clip on facebook by a UK trainer on a gypsy cob much the same build as my pony which would only canter on one lead and she advised to sort it out - straightness, transitions, straightness, transitions, forwardness, and not working at canter till you have a pony working away from the track and straight on the side that they wont lead on, then ask for canter in short bursts and not over and over again till they get the correct lead by accident. in fact exactly the same things as my instructor has said at the end of the last lesson.

I still have the "want a different horse" feelings about Pony but I don't think I could bear to part with her, she is so good and so happy at our yard. I think I spent so many years plotting for a big endurance Arab that saying I want one is like a default mechanism when things go wrong, it used to be I will run of with Brychen (old horse) and live in a tipi in Wales. One of the many things that has made me think I would be mad to part with her is meeting someone else with the perfect big horse for the job that she cannot do well with as so nervous of the horse - I think that would be me if I "upgraded". The most amazing thing is my mother really enjoyed the trip out, described pony as having an elegant trot and spent a lot of time fussing over pony when back at the yard, she hated my last horse! My son who at 12 is the font of all knowledge has said "remember mummy, small but mighty".

Here is a clip filmed by said son and comments even adverse ones welcome as I can see some progress but want more:

https://youtu.be/m1WpBbSUcIs

[Sue B]

GHS, don't take this the wrong way but...I really don't see why you aren't thrilled with the progress you AND pony have made. Every video you've shared is showing a big improvement in how your pony moves AND, more importantly, in your position. Buying a bigger, fancier horse is not going to suddenly make you a more advanced rider--if anything it would more likely cause a regression. Continue keeping a journal and periodically refer back to your videos. At one year look clear back to the beginning of the year and you will see what we and your instructor see...a lovely horse and rider team making the journey together! So far as the canter goes--it will come when you both are ready.

No progress for me and my ponies as I have yet to find time to ride; they sure look pretty out in the pasture however. Running on just a few hour's sleep again. How does that saying go? "I'll have plenty of time to sleep when I'm dead."

Flight, thank you for sharing the pictures and great jingles for your knee surgery and recovery!!!

[Dresseur]

Flight, I'm wishing for a speedy recovery for you. GH, I also think you are showing a lot of progress and lots to be proud of!

So, for me, I mentioned that I was going to be taking part in a vaulting clinic that was being held at a friend's facilities. I'm so, so glad that I did. Not only was it a blast, but it uncovered something that I think is going to be a game changer for me. But first, pics!

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So, this was a very large, very wide horse - and the vaulting pad made him wider. So, in the canter, doing a no hands movement, I could feel myself slipping to the outside slightly. Alarm bells immediately started going off in my head and all of a sudden, a bunch of little things that I've been feeling made sense to me. When I canter left, horses tend to want to leave the circle, in any gait - going left horses tend to push me against the short side wall, pirouettes to the left - same thing, tempi changes right to left, I always feel as though my hip has twisted and I'm off to the left.

So, prior to the vaulting clinic, I had my stirrups taken away from me in the canter because we thought that I was flinging myself around in an effort to get the change. After the clinic, I discussed what I felt with my coach and we agreed that this could be a VERY big deal, the question was how to pin-point what exactly I was doing or not doing. In the normal work, I was able (across 6 horses) to get a good feel in the trot and canter by making sure my right side was not going soft. And in the trot and canter work on those horses who were solid enough to do so, I dropped my stirrups. So, by the time I got to Gala, I was a bit fatigued. Which made the issue crystal, crystal clear as I went to the pirouettes without stirrups (the best that I've ever done) and then tempi changes up against the wall - no stirrups. Because I was fatigued, I wasn't able to hold myself as still as last time. And, to my horror, the l to r was straight and quiet, the r to left I was ending up hanging off the right side of the horse, desperately twisting myself in order to get the change. So. calf OFF the horse's side, and as Deadpool would say, "MAXIMUM EFFORT" I held myself straight in the saddle and got the straightest, quietest change that I've ever gotten on the r/l change. So, needless to say, Andrea and I are incredibly excited. And while we knew that this was happening, we didn't realize it was so prevalent in all the work.

The other big breakthrough was that I got taken apart for doing unilateral half-halts which was causing the horses to not be straight. I have no problem with straightness in the piaffe/passage, so I was told to think passage straightness on every horse. What a big difference. It's amazing how many basics are getting picked a part and getting put back together again.

One thing we discussed was that in some ways, I'm going to have slower progress because Andrea is able to hit the reset button every time she schools the horses, so the bar is always way up high. She said, if I were to take Gala home and school her, we'd make "progress" and I'd be practicing 2s and 1s no issue because we'd find a way to work together, but that the quality would be sub par. So, while progress is slow, it's because I'm being held by a standard by Andrea AND the horses. Which is more frustrating, but ultimately much more beneficial in the long run to me as a rider. So, I'm thankful. And I'm so thankful I tried something different which led to this coalescing of feelings that is helping to address yet another basic piece of the puzzle.

[piedmontfields]

Dresseur, thank you so much for posting your revelations! It is always *so* helpful and inspiring. Love that you did a vaulting clinic, too, and that it inspired much broader learning. You are in a unique learning situation--cherish it and embrace slow beauty.

[Moutaineer]

So, when he doesn't want to be caught, Walker damn well can canter... beautifully.

Hah... now I know, sucker!

[demi]

Still enjoying this thread...thanks for all the updates.

Dresseur, your journey is so interesting. Thanks for posting all the details. The pics are a bonus!

Greeenholmeshandy, I think yours is a great journey also. I relate to your "want a different horse" feelings, because I felt the same way about my little halfarab Rocky. She is just adorable like your Shandy. I had put a lot of work into her having her from the time she was three years old, but I felt she wasn't progressing quickly enough. But two things were in play. 1) the grass is always greener and 2) I always look at sales horses and always want another horse! I did end up with another horse, Emma, but her progress is even slower than Rocky's. I took about a year and a half break from dressage with Rocky after i got Emma, and when I started a little dressage with Rocky again I appreciated her SO MUCH more.

I am not suggesting you get another horse, but maybe just taking some lessons or riding another horse a bit may change your perspective. I was in a good position to get a second riding horse but I wouldn't have sold Rocky if that was the only way i could get another horse. Looking back on my own situation, it might have been helpful to have just taken a complete break from riding Rocky. I think you are doing well to vary the kind of riding you do with your pony. I had a varied routine with Rocky, too, although not nearly as varied as yours...just some thoughts.

[piedmontfields]

Laughing at the sneaky Walker. Hope Laddie continues to be sane during his mending period. Continuing to cross fingers for you both. Flight, thanks for the frosty photo and great update on your horses. Best to you for a quick recovery. I love the XC video on Ding! So much fun.

GHH and Demi, your comments remind me of a shift I made at some point in how I thought about my riding/training. Again, I am not super talented or as experienced as some on this board. But I have learned to embrace my competence, discipline, patience and dedication to improvement. I do not have the "fanciest horse" in the barn (not by a long shot LOL!). However, I've learned to accept compliments about Emi's work from others as genuine--not as "nice for a round, dumpy pony-like mare." GHH, your progress is obvious and awesome. Demi, I am very aware of Emi's limitations in the gait department--however, her gaits keep getting better! :-0 And this is on a 15 year old mare. I find that evolution very fun, even if we will never have "8" gaits.

It has been so hot that I am mostly hacking and mostly focused on my position. Emi is a good teacher: When I sit evenly and upright enough, she instantly goes on the bit with a nice neck and is nicely aligned. Yeah, the seat really does put the horse on the bit ;-p

[Ponichiwa]

Lots of commonalities here. Here, too, it's been hotter than blazes. And I've got a pony who may be described as dumpy and round. I ground-drove her yesterday and had to drop her surcingle to the bottom hole on both sides in order to get it wrapped around her pony girth. Not a proud moment for Kiwi. However, it was our maiden voyage double-longing/ground driving, and was generally a success! Walk/halts are extremely interesting in the lines-- you can make a lot clearer corrections than on the longe and it's easy to see where the halt starts to go wrong which can be hard to correct under saddle. All in all, pretty fun.

About the would-I-be-better-off-with-another-horse thing. Also have been there recently-- there's a fairly long thread on here about some of my struggles with Kiwi with regards to frustration with progress, etc. Perspective is a valuable thing, though. Taking a step back to look at some of our recent achievements vs. what we were limited to at this time last year is helpful. Week-on-week it may not feel like much progress is made, but on a macro scale things are looking up.

And that's my recommendation. "Zoom out" to see your progress. Rarely is it as fast as I want it to be, because I am a combination of impatient and quick to see faults (great combo for life-long happiness, fyi). But as much as it stings, I'd have the same rider with any horse, so selling on Kiwi wouldn't ultimately solve any of my riding issues.

The above doesn't apply for horses that are unsuitable for their riders-- i.e. dangerous, too green, or with differing preferences on discipline of choice.

[Dresseur]

I agree with the idea of "zooming out" to see your progress. When you are in it day to day, it's hard to see the incremental changes that are occurring. I keep a record of photos and videos so that I can see where I've come from. On FB, I wrote a post about my recent findings and one of the things that I adhere to is that you can take satisfaction in the triumphs along the way, but never be satisfied with status quo, and never stop looking for ways to improve. If you are a conscientious and thinking rider, there will ALWAYS be something you want to improve.

Give yourself permission to recognize the large and small achievements along the way. I also try to change the way that I think about things - rather than "I HATE the way my leg turns out, or WHY can't I get this, or why can't I get the horse to do X,Y,Z... I think, what do I need to address in order to make this better. It sounds dumb - but it helps me stay positive because I'm a terrible offender of beating myself up. And, as a bonus, it helps me think through the basics as I try to address something. Because 9 times out of 10, the missing link can be helped by shoring up a basic component of the work. And, it takes the emotion out of it... I have two modes, pride and joy in what I'm doing and accomplishing, and a rationale/analytical side that is always in gear when I'm riding. It sounds cold... but I can love my horse, and be joyful in what I'm doing, but I find that for me, anthropomorphizing prevents me from seeking the underlying issue. If the horse is unhappy, I need to find out why in an analytical way. And it goes without saying that anger has no place around horses. Not everyone operates like that - but, I find that there is a difference in thinking like a trainer vs. pinning all your hopes and dreams on a horse that gives two shits about being being anywhere other than eating grass and pooping. Slight exaggeration, but you get the point.

[StraightForward]

Good discussion! GHH, I think you've made wonderful progress with Shandy, and I really enjoy your updates.

I've spent quite a bit of time on deciding what I "need" horse-wise over the last several months. I have the fancy WB mare who is requiring a significant investment in professional training right now. I'm not sure if she'll end up being suitable for me or not. Meanwhile I'm working with a green horse of the same age who is not as fancy but has a great mind. She is really weak, and we're working on things that would be total non-issues for the WB, such as not using your LF leg as a kickstand, and maintaining some semblance of rhythm at the trot. However, she tries hard and I feel totally confident in my ability to ride her, which may mean more progress in the long run. I don't know, it's really hard but I'll eventually have to choose between the two, or getting another horse entirely. I often joke that if I could get Annabelle's brain transplanted into Pickle's body I'd have the perfect horse.

We had a nice ride this morning. I've gone back to lunging a few minutes before each ride to loosen her up a bit and keep tabs on how her movement is evolving. It was muggy and she was a little behind the leg, so I woke her up a bit with some canter. I wish the arena was bigger so we could go longer before each turn. Towards the end of the ride, I added a couple quarter turn on the haunches at the walk, and then got a couple lovely, sweeping half-circles right, whereas she usually falls out, especially when she wants to get sucked in to the rail headed back towards the gate. Saturday I have a lesson with a new instructor; it will be nice to have eyes on the ground and get some recommendations on the direction I'm going with this horse.

[kande50]

Greeenholmeshandy, I think yours is a great journey also. I relate to your "want a different horse" feelings.

What we should probably do when we start thinking that our riding lives would be so much better if we just had a "better" horse, is go take some lessons on a variety of horses, and then decide if a new horse really might get us to where we'd like to be, or if we'd just be trading our current challenges for different ones.

[musical comedy]

Greeenholmeshandy, I think yours is a great journey also. I relate to your "want a different horse" feelings.

What we should probably do when we start thinking that our riding lives would be so much better if we just had a "better" horse, is go take some lessons on a variety of horses, and then decide if a new horse really might get us to where we'd like to be, or if we'd just be trading our current challenges for different ones.

That may not work the way you think. Once people ride a nice horse, they won't want to go back to an ordinary one. If one has never ridden a nice horse, then you don't know what you are missing, and that's maybe a good thing. (Dislaimer: Don't pick on my word 'nice' as I think most know what I mean). Do you think Dressuer would be where she is without having had the luxury of riding well trained horses? Maybe eventually, but now as quickly as she has done it.

[Dresseur]

^The answer to that is no. I wouldn't be. But, what I did was take all those lessons and feelings from those nicely trained horses (not necessarily "nicer" horses) and apply those lessons to my own horses, and I made them nicer. But, in order to get to where I am right now, I needed to take lessons on horses that were schooled at a level higher than I was at. I could have ridden my own horse and schooled up to a level, but then I would only know what it takes to get that particular horse to do x,y, or z movement, and it would have been idiosyncratic and not repeatable. Like I said in my previous post, if I was left to my own devices and was able to take Gala home, I'd be performing all the movements. But, I'm being held to a standard by both horse and trainer who is schooling the horse so I can't stray too far from that bar or Gala will not do what I'm asking. And, if she does... it's heavy in the hand, or the balance is wrong or the changes twist etc etc.

In terms of how quickly I progressed... 12-13 years of position work, lessons, theory (reading everything and anything) and unlearning 17-18 years of hunter/jumper habits to get me to be a rider that trained horses up to 3rd level (including teaching a clean change), and then almost a year of cobbled together lessons to get me started on GP movements and to not embarrass myself showing at PSG. None of this is riding every day, or even being able to ride multiple horses. And I'm definitely NOT rich. I expect another 6 months to a year and I will maybe not embarrass myself in a GP test. And then years beyond that to feel confident in what I can do. Because as I'm finding, while the 10 years prior served me well, there are still lots of holes, and I'm light years away from being able to create the same lightness and feeling that I'm trying to emulate.

To add to the conversation... nice is relative. Training can make a less than ideally conformed horse "nice". Poor training can make a NICE horse, not so nice. Smooth gaits can make a not "nice" horse nice for an older rider, jarring gaits can make a NICE horse, not nice to ride. Temperament can make a horse nice, or not nice. Good temperament, smooth gaits, AND good training? Now, that's a unicorn.

[StraightForward]

Greeenholmeshandy, I think yours is a great journey also. I relate to your "want a different horse" feelings.

What we should probably do when we start thinking that our riding lives would be so much better if we just had a "better" horse, is go take some lessons on a variety of horses, and then decide if a new horse really might get us to where we'd like to be, or if we'd just be trading our current challenges for different ones.

That may not work the way you think. Once people ride a nice horse, they won't want to go back to an ordinary one. If one has never ridden a nice horse, then you don't know what you are missing, and that's maybe a good thing. (Dislaimer: Don't pick on my word 'nice' as I think most know what I mean). Do you think Dressuer would be where she is without having had the luxury of riding well trained horses? Maybe eventually, but now as quickly as she has done it.

Yeah... maybe try different horses within your realistic financial means

[musical comedy]

<respectfully snipped>

In terms of how quickly I progressed... 12-13 years of position work, lessons, theory (reading everything and anything) and unlearning 17-18 years of hunter/jumper habits to get me to be a rider that trained horses up to 3rd level (including teaching a clean change), and then almost a year of cobbled together lessons to get me started on GP movements and to not embarrass myself showing at PSG. None of this is riding every day, or even being able to ride multiple horses. And I'm definitely NOT rich.

Please know that I in no way meant to discredit you. Absolutely not. But to comment on what you wrote above, many people, including probably most on this forum have ridden decades of lessons. Heck I was probably showing over fences before you were born. I've probably taken more lessons than most people here, but never had the luxury to ride a proper highly schooled horse. However, the horses I did buy and take lessons on were talented enough not to make my job ever harder, being I am not a naturally gifted rider.

I guess the point I was trying to make is not to discourage people from upgrading their mount because it can make a huge difference in their riding. Most all those 'kids' doing the Young Riders learned on trained horses and are riding made horses. Lately there are many older AA's getting their Silver Medal on trained horses. Achieving this on a talent-limited horse on a tight budget, plus losing time not riding because of too much snow, too much rain, too hot, etc. is not the best recipe for success .

As far as budget goes, my thinking it is better to buy a 17 year old fei horse that needs maintenance than something young and cheap thinking you can make it into something when you (g) have never done it before.

It's one thing to ride movements on a trained horse, but yet another to train them, especially when you have never even ridden them.

[kande50]

Yeah... maybe try different horses within your realistic financial means

True, as there's no sense in looking at horses one can't afford anyway, unless someone decides that they're going to continue to take lessons instead of owning.

I wish I'd had the sense to do that when I started taking dressage lessons, but may have made the wrong decision when I started bringing my own horse (because she was so much nicer than the school horses I was riding, and if I was riding them that was taking up time that I could have been putting into her).

If I'd been more on the ball back then I would have realized that I was "moving up" through the school horses really fast, and if I kept riding them I'd have ended up on horses that would have taught me a lot.

OTOH, if I'd stayed at that barn I would have had even more bad habits to break if I ever wanted to start learning how to ride "classically", so maybe it all worked out for the best?

[kande50]

I've probably taken more lessons than most people here, but never had the luxury to ride a proper highly schooled horse.

Depending upon one's definition of "proper highly schooled horse", I doubt many could even afford to ride one of those in lessons, much less own one, because I don't think there are very many of them and those there are aren't likely to be available for lessons.

Nor do I think anyone needs a highly trained lesson horse to progress, as long as they can move up to better trained ones as they improve.

[Josette]

IMO - sometimes a reality check is needed regarding our riding skills, athletic ability and age along with our wallet. Sure everyone can admire and even envy a beautiful horse and rider team but not everyone has the money, time and physical ability to be a higher level rider. Many of us will always be ammy riders and there is nothing wrong with being a solid competent lower level rider. GHH you have a lovely pony and have made wonderful progress in your riding but sadly you continue to be frustrated and unhappy. I agree it is a good idea for you to ride some well trained school horses so you may improve and progress your riding. It will also benefit the continued progress you will make training your pony with your instructor. Also, you are a petite rider and riding a large WB type will be a world different from your pony. I love large ponies and finally after so many years (here in the states) they are finally becoming as popular as in Europe and GB. Here is a link of some sale ponies and my point is to observe the "petite" riders for their position, posture and how the ponies are being ridden. I have no doubt that your pony could be trained just as well as these ponies.

http://www.warmblood-sales.com/SportPonies.asp

http://www.warmblood-sales.com/HorseDet ... erID=11697

Lastly, I've know a few older ammy riders who purchased very expensive WBs in hopes of attaining their dreams of being a high level rider in shows. This did not occur because as mentioned it takes years of dedication to learn to ride really well. I've know a few who got hurt or thought they could train a young horse themselves with an instructor - years later they are still lower level - in one case lower than they were with their prior QH.

Also, you mentioned endurance riding with an Arab. I owned an Arab when I was young and they are known for their stamina. You better have the stamina and fitness as well to ride a horse who always wants to go and may be on the hot side temperament wise. As horse owners and riders we need to be realistic about the type of horse we wish to own and ride as it is a commitment about the welfare of the rider and the horse. The goal is we have fun, love the journey of learning and progressing riding but to stay safe.

[Chisamba]

So, when he doesn't want to be caught, Walker damn well can canter... beautifully.

Hah... now I know, sucker!

Hahaha.

[Chisamba]

I have suggested horse rider changes, horse goes to a rider that is either ready to learn from them, or capable of improving them. Rider gets new horse than they can improve more quickly on. In an ideal situation both horse and rider can be happier.

I'm humble enough to know that I might not be the best home for every horse, but arrogant enough to to believe I can improve. The lives of some. Smile.

Yes it's hot here too, and unseasonably humid and muddy. Deneb is on walking in hand and recovering.

Kimba had superbly benefited from focus on balance in every phase of riding. She is much happier in her contact.

Acacia is coming along gang busters. More balanced and more steady.

Altair is the sweetest donkey I ever met. He is becoming good about feet picking up, lives being groomed, and is easy to catch and lead. It's a mystery to me how he ended up in the kill pen.

Vega is recovering from his deep deep frog thrush, and seems to be uncomplicated under saddle.

I love summer.

[Chisamba]

Edited to add, it is my reasoned opinion that... I would never have progressed to upper levels without having had the intense opportunity for 2 years, 6 days a week, ride trained horses at many levels daily under the watchful eye of my trainer and his wife, who also rode.

I then continued to. Practice these early morning rides at his mother's horse farm, riding and training six to eight horses daily.

Before this job I had already ridden gymkhana, endurance received my British horse instructor certificate after a six month course at Stoney Hurst and twice done 3 month stints at the South African Lippi stallions at kyalami, riding once with an SRS rider there.

I had ridden multiple horses all my life, as well as taken the abovementioned intensives. Riding made horses, even imperfect ones, under an educated eye has no equal, none nada, niks, eikona.. For riding upper level movements and learning

[Dresseur]

MC I didn't think you meant anything offensive
Just thought it would add to the discussion to explain my journey.

[khall]

One thing I think no one has mentioned is having an attitude change as riders. IMO there is nothing wrong with moving on from a horse as long as we are realistic in our abilities and goals and understand that NO horse is perfect! They all, just as we do, have issues and strengths and weaknesses.

I faced this when Rip was 5-6 as a rider. He was unpredictable, challenging and could be quite the handful. Never mean or nasty, but always checking to see where the line was and if he could cross it! He was kind of scary and I had to make the decision do I stick with him and put my big girl panties on or sell him on. There was a definite internal conversation I had and I came to the conclusion that I would suck it up, quit whining about it and do my best to make him into a good horse. It took time, just as any young horse does, probably a bit more than with some. (Mark told me one of the last clinics I hosted that I would be much farther along if I had had an easier horse:) I'm glad I stuck with him. He has been a wonderful teacher for so many reasons and he will make many other horses look like a breeze!!

So I think very often we as riders need to check ourselves mentally. If you love your pony GHH and want to keep her on then love her for what she is. Dressage is just training and will help improve any horse. Be realistic in your goals for you and for her. Strive to improve yourself even more than your pony (which you have done both!) Realize that yes there are some much more talented horses out there, there always will be. If you feel like you are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole all the time and don't think it is fair to your pony then do move her on and find something that has more training so you can learn. But if you determine she is what makes you happy regardless of her limitations, then keep her and ride her with a smile!

I do agree riding trained horses, even ones with just a bit more training than what we sit on can really help us as riders to get those good feelings and understanding. So find a barn/trainer with some schooled horses and have some lessons. It can be eye opening and humbling! I was lucky enough to have had 3 FEI horses to learn off of, not international quality horses but regional winners with some very nice training on them. I look at some of those international horses and think I have no interest in throwing a leg over them! For me as a rider and as someone who has helped others find horses, it is way more about the mind and ease of training in the horse, not the flash and ability.

[Sue B]

Again, great discussion guys; I hope greenholmeshandy is deriving benefit from it because there is certainly plenty of food-for-thought here.

Moutaineer: Funny, funny Walker. Those older horses can be quite a handful at times!

Ponichiwa, interesting about the double lunging. Those walk-halts should really help you with your more advanced work. I swear, horses can come up with a million ways to cheat the w-h under saddle. I know that Rudy will ever so subtly, drop on his forehand hoping I won't notice. if I fail to address it, he then proceeds to sneak behind my leg, and so it goes.

MC, my Tio, whom I purchased as a coming 2yr old, was deliberately chosen by me, in part, for his very average gaits. He, of course, also had to have a good, trainable, mindset to even be in the running, as I back and train my horses myself. In my youth, I rode amazing horses with massive gaits and all the buttons as part of my working student job, but I never really desired owning such a horse. For me, the fun of dressage is the journey from stiff, uncoordinated (and some who were ruined and abused) horses to happy, light dancing partner. As I age, however, I am more than happy to go back to a "plainer" horse who will carry me on into my 70's. I doubt I will get him much past 3rd, although he may surprise me yet, as his canter is developing quite nicely, but anyone can sit his trot and he is great fun over jumps. My TB, otoh, was declared "nice, not a good horse, but definitely a nice horse" by Ms. Gurney and has the gaits and power to go at least PSG competitively. While his temperament is such that he would care for a beginner or weaker rider, his gaits are simply too much for all but the fit, knowledgeable rider, so I don't know if I will be able to much more than walk (or canter) him in my later years. So, yes, sometimes one does go backwards a bit--depends on your long term goals.

[greenholmeshandy]

I think this is a fascinating discussion. I was really interested in dressuers vaulting lesson and what she gleaned from it. Not on a par with that but on a similar vein, Yesterday evening here was lesson night hot and sultry so poor shandy couldn't breathe very well, chunky build, black, mild hay fever so instructor opted for a walk session no rein contact so Pony could stretch gullet to breathe so all turns and attempts at lateral movement from seat and leg, boy did I realise how much I rely on my hands!

Also I stabilise my self using my knees and sort of give leg aids from moving my calf and heel up and back (cos of knees). So worked on stretching leg down and back . I felt like chewed spaghetti afterwards.

My friend has suggested lessons at a good yard she goes to on their horses at lunge to help my seat and see how I get on.

I do go round in circles about another horse. In truth I don't want to sell shandy as she is "family" and I get quite ill at the thought of all the things that could happen to her. Although people assume as I have a pony I probably have no money I could in fact afford a reasonably decent level dressage horse, i suspect however that all I would do is swap one set of problems for another. I am short, getting on a bit and getting fat a bit, I can change the fat bit but not the rest and I think I would struggle with a bigger horse. My husband and mum both are of a view that what ever I have I will moan -glass is half empty, a bit unfair as I always think ohhhh a half full bottle for me!

The other thing is here in the uk we are lucky enough to have a national dressage organisation that runs grass routes type competitions (my quest) alongside full affiliated competitions and Native Pony dressage national championships.

The comment about needing to be fit to keep up with a strapping and forward endurance Arab also rang true. I think I would scare myself silly!

Anyway we are hopefully if x countrying on Sunday, then the following weekend a pleasure ride which goes along a bridle path through my favourite zoo! Apoarantly you can just about spot the giraffes. Then more stressage.

I have rather naughty included a clip of her with instructor on top, shandy is more forward at home and more with her and no issue re left canter. Please keep in mind that this is work in progress but I think shows her better than when I ride. I don't think Pony lacks ability to progress up to perhaps medium, really the issue is my riding.

https://youtu.be/EzpTjfxV9U4

[Flight]

Dresseur, was there anything specific you found that was making you crooked? Like collapsing in one side, or a hip further advanced that the other? I fall out to the outside of a circle and I think it's because I collapse my inner waist, but I'm not sure.

I've thought about getting a nice fancy trained WB (or I'd really like a lusitano) but reality is I can't afford it and you really do have to be a good enough rider to ride the bloody thing!

I used to be really angsty about my riding and get quite stressed about not getting it right all the time. However, especially over the last 18months, I've learned to accept it's just going to take time and it takes time for the horses to get it too. I'm still critical and always trying to ride better, but a lot less emotional about it. Just keep chipping away.
Getting the chance to ride different horses that are more trained really does help you bring that feeling onto your own horses. Definitely do that if you can Greenholmeshandy! If you love your horse and don't want to sell her, you can keep on improving her. I'll send you a vid of my first horse (who I semi retired due to soundness) and the changes over time. It's very funny at the start - feel free to chuckle at us! I love my 2 horses, so they are with me for their lives (hopefully!) so I'm going to just make them as good as I can. I agree, your pony can be trained up to whatever you like. It just takes time.

Here's Ding's vid over the past 18months. Lots to still work on of course, but I'll see where were are in another couple of years time. I'm so lame right now with this knee, day 3 post surgery and I'm B O R E D!
https://youtu.be/ey63QBLgwss