Trainers riding through you.

[Ryeissa]

Well then, you're just a better rider than I am. Be grateful.

I agreed with you that your trainer is giving you a lot of conflicting/abstract advice, and I wanted to present a different way of describing to highlight how I learn. I'm learning just like everyone, In fact I've just had a week of horrible rides so clearly not "all that"

[piedmontfields]

This is a mini-example of a trainer I love riding through/with her student:
https://vimeo.com/313667677

And a slightly longer version:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2uG8qeeKxQ

You notice that there are a lot of shorthand terms/ideas communicated to help the rider---JJ usually teaches students these ideas during the walk breaks if they are new to her teaching.

[musical comedy]

This is a mini-example of a trainer I love riding through/with her student:
https://vimeo.com/313667677

And a slightly longer version:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2uG8qeeKxQ

You notice that there are a lot of shorthand terms/ideas communicated to help the rider---JJ usually teaches students these ideas during the walk breaks if they are new to her teaching.

I could not bear to watch much of that second video. The horse is not going forward at all. It's painful to watch for me. Why be working on shoulder-in, etc. with a non forward horse? The first video instruction I liked. I have watched several JJ teaching videos and did not like them. Too much of nothing "good, good, etc." Same goes for Felitictas. These people are probably great with teaching good riders, but they patronize the lesser rider.

In my current case, I don't feel I need 'instruction', but just 'correction'. I am not learning new stuff, my horse is. I know what to do, but my body will not cooperate. It's what I wrote about earlier with auto-pilot bad habits.

[Ryeissa]

This is a mini-example of a trainer I love riding through/with her student:
https://vimeo.com/313667677

And a slightly longer version:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2uG8qeeKxQ

You notice that there are a lot of shorthand terms/ideas communicated to help the rider---JJ usually teaches students these ideas during the walk breaks if they are new to her teaching.

I could not bear to watch much of that second video. The horse is not going forward at all. It's painful to watch for me. Why be working on shoulder-in, etc. with a non forward horse? The first video instruction I liked. I have watched several JJ teaching videos and did not like them. Too much of nothing "good, good, etc." Same goes for Felitictas. These people are probably great with teaching good riders, but they patronize the lesser rider.

In my current case, I don't feel I need 'instruction', but just 'correction'. I am not learning new stuff, my horse is. I know what to do, but my body will not cooperate. It's what I wrote about earlier with auto-pilot bad habits.

I think the point here was to discuss the communication style not the riding itself- how did you feel about that aspect?

[musical comedy]

I think the point here was to discuss the communication style not the riding itself- how did you feel about that aspect?

What specifically about the communication style am I to comment on? Actually the style is just about the same as my trainer does.

[Ryeissa]

I think the point here was to discuss the communication style not the riding itself- how did you feel about that aspect?

What specifically about the communication style am I to comment on? Actually the style is just about the same as my trainer does.

prefect thanks

[musical comedy]

What do you think of this style. My trainer calls out instructions sometimes this quickly. However, he cares more about the quality and success of the request.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvsSe6D5yGk

[Ryeissa]

What do you think of this style. My trainer calls out instructions sometimes this quickly. However, he cares more about the quality and success of the request.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OvsSe6D5yGk

very normal lesson, not what I consider too quick at all.

[musical comedy]

See then, we're pretty much on the same page. A lot of people would call those instructions quick. At the speed they are given requires a rider that doesn't have to think about which leg/hand/seat, etc they are going to use. I mean, she's like 'circle'...now. You can't be thinking about the aids for it.

[Ryeissa]

See then, we're pretty much on the same page. A lot of people would call those instructions quick. At the speed they are given requires a rider that doesn't have to think about which leg/hand/seat, etc they are going to use. I mean, she's like 'circle'...now. You can't be thinking about the aids for it.

yeah, there is a time to break down the details and times to not do that. Some lessons are more of one or the other.

[Flight]

I could not bear to watch much of that second video. The horse is not going forward at all. It's painful to watch for me. Why be working on shoulder-in, etc. with a non forward horse? The first video instruction I liked.

A bit off the topic sorry, but I liked the way that horse was going, because I think (and correct me if I'm wrong anyone!) if she pushed it more forward it would have rushed and been out of balance. When she had it with smaller steps and slower tempo, it balanced and swung better.
The other horse already had a good balance and could stay balanced for that bigger trot.

The chestnut's instructor is giving quick directions with quick instructions. Sometimes for me that can make me over ride and get a bit angsty! I like the concise comments, but maybe not delivered with that pressure behind it. If that makes sense.

[Josette]

removed

[musical comedy]

I didn't understand why the chestnut horse was wearing a tie down martingale or whatever that is called. Otherwise, no issue with the lesson. I did not watch the whole lesson because the tie down turned me off.

I can't tell if those are draw reins or something else. Can you see a set of two reins? I can't. The quick succession of things is ok for me, but there doesn't seem to be focus. By that I mean, what is the goal of the lesson? Without knowing this history of trainer/student, I can't tell. With me, my trainer is not mixing up all kinds of things like this. We work on one thing until it is sufficient enough to move on to something harder. Probably that would be boring to a lot of people, and it even is to me. I won't take the conservation into a pro/con about auxiliary reins except to say I've never needed them. If I can get a horse to stay round without them, why can't better riders? Perhaps it's because maybe my horses are that powerful?

Interesting thing is that this bnt (Cindy Ishoy) seems to do the same things in her clinics that I've watched on youtube. In fact, my current mare had lessons with her and they more or less mirrowed this one.

I'm guessing the next lesson was for supple and transition exercises. I agree the horse should have been allowed to go more forward because I could see dropped contact with the reins at times. (Not big and super forward just allowed to move a bit more?) Aren't we suppose to encourage the horse to accept contact? (I do not want to start another debate about contact or connection - it was discussed.) The horse looked very safe and cooperative and did not get excited or tense. I would be concerned about shutting the horse down at some point if he is always ridden this way. The rider was doing some sort of swinging with her shoulders maybe? and I wondered why that was not corrected? This imo it is how certain negative rider habits are picked up and then we have to undo them. Just saying - flame suit on ....

Interesting thing about this one. I checked out horse/rider as I often do. I thought the rider's name was familiar. No wonder, she is a top event rider from Pa. The horse is an event horse and shown Preliminary. One of the first things I look at when assessing a pair, is the connection to the outside rein. If it is wobbling, then I know the horse isn't connected. I'm not for running a horse off it's feet in the name of forward, but the horse ought to be able to stretch into the contact before doing stuff like shoulder-in. Shoulder-in is a collecting exercise and how can you collect energy you don't have?

[piedmontfields]

I could not bear to watch much of that second video. The horse is not going forward at all. It's painful to watch for me. Why be working on shoulder-in, etc. with a non forward horse? The first video instruction I liked.

A bit off the topic sorry, but I liked the way that horse was going, because I think (and correct me if I'm wrong anyone!) if she pushed it more forward it would have rushed and been out of balance. When she had it with smaller steps and slower tempo, it balanced and swung better.

I think you're dead on, Flight. I've seen this lesson so many times from JJ. Rider and horse come in and rush around with a tight topline, not really through or honest. They think they are using forward to connect the horse. The horse might even be a bit explosive. Quite a common situation with PREs/Lusitano types. So in they come to the circle, to establish bend and to help the horse go on the bit and S L O W down over their four legs. It is not the final product here or a "real shoulder in", but a step towards more correct and healthy movement. JJ is a very upbeat person. I don't hear her comments of "good" as "that is show worthy!" but rather as "good, you are working the exercise, keep going."

[musical comedy]

I think you're dead on, Flight. I've seen this lesson so many times from JJ. Rider and horse come in and rush around with a tight topline, not really through or honest. They think they are using forward to connect the horse. The horse might even be a bit explosive. Quite a common situation with PREs/Lusitano types.

I highly doubt that this very experienced and competent rider is rushing around. This horse is not a pre. It's a warmblood. In any case, there is no point in arguing about it, because some of us on here have very different viewpoints on what looks good and on trainers. Piedmont you seem to very much like this trainer and I don't, so that explains some of it. I'm not denying she is a good rider, but as a trainer I don't care for her. I have spoken with others that have cliniced with her and they didn't go back.

Also, are all riders supposed to know that "GOOD" with emphasis like she gives doesn't mean it's great? That's why some people come out of lessons thinking they did super when maybe they didn't. It's like when some gets a sloppy canter depart for the first time, and trainer yells 'good'.

[Josette]

Oh well - regarding lesson style I prefer an agenda where we are focused working on particular task. If the lesson covers too much information then I probably will not be able to ride it on my own. (Repetition and understanding is key for me.) Help me to understand when I should correct myself/horse at specific times and movements. If I'm crooked, leaning, hanging, too much inside or outside - tell me and then get us to do it correct so I learn the right way. Then I would hope when I ride alone I can repeat these exercises and RECOGNIZE I made an error and can correct myself.

[AmityBee]

I didn't understand why the chestnut horse was wearing a tie down martingale or whatever that is called. Otherwise, no issue with the lesson. I did not watch the whole lesson because the tie down turned me off.

I can't tell if those are draw reins or something else. Can you see a set of two reins? I can't.

They're draw reins.

[Ryeissa]

Yes draw reins. Like JJ as a rider. Don't want to comment or judge someone who didn't ok publishing the video on a forum and being discussed.

[Josette]

Sorry - you are right Rye.

[musical comedy]

Don't want to comment or judge someone who didn't ok publishing the video on a forum and being discussed.

I don't agree with that, sorry. If a video on youtube or elsewhere is Public, then it's open for discussion anywhere. jmo. Exactly how does someone 'ok' a video for being open for discussion? Do they put up a youtube video and add "feel free to tear this apart". Come-on, this is one of those situations where it's ok to comment on one person and not on another. If the comments were complementary, I'll bet you wouldn't have a problem discussing it.

[AmityBee]

Also, are all riders supposed to know that "GOOD" with emphasis like she gives doesn't mean it's great? That's why some people come out of lessons thinking they did super when maybe they didn't. It's like when some gets a sloppy canter depart for the first time, and trainer yells 'good'.

I think yes. Most of us are self-critical and self-reflected people who know their level of training. And if they are not and do not, a "Oh, yeah. That was alright for you but overall a pretty sad and mediocre attempt" isn't going to change that anyway. So, why be negative?

To me, in a lesson a "good" means I'm on the right track. I've had one of the worst and at the same time most productive lessons last sunday. It was ugly and hideous but we also made good progress. We worked on a lot, we pushed, I failed and made mistakes and still there were a lot of "goods" and "well dones". A lot of smiles and laughs too.

I know I suck, I don't need someone in the ring to tell me that. What I need is someone who can fix it, who has the strategies (and more that one if one doesn't work out) someone who has exercise ideas, who can built on small stuff and make things better, who is constuctive and positive, and above all who's good for the HORSE!

I adore my trainer. I trust my trainer. If I didn't, I wouldn't ride with her. I'm over that. I have never ridden with anyone so quiet and so positive. Things can totally implode and she will be positive about it. We'll just laugh it off. That's priceless to me.

The way she teaches works well with bi-monthy lessons. She doesn't micromanage the ride. She will ask if something specifically needs work or she'll pick something to work on and introduce an exercise that will/can become progessively more difficult during the lesson. We take breakes, talk about what was good, bad. There is a lot of explaining but onyl during those breakes. If a certain approache doesn't work she'll have another. During brakes she will also tell me what to ride next so she doesn't need to do that while we are working. This gives her the chance to concentrate on corrections only. With new stuff she will sometimes just let me ride and watch, then call me to her and we will talk about what I did right or wrong before I do it again.

During the two weeks I'm on my own I can work on these exercises from easy to difficult until she comes in again for more and we'll revisit.

[kande50]

Once I got off that warmup circle and the sitting trot work started, I did ok. By then, my reins and gloves were soaked and reins kept slipping. I have a real hard time in rising trot. I hate it.

Good for you to even take lessons, because no matter how uncomfortable they are I think they probably do inspire us to work harder than we would on our own.

[Ryeissa]

Don't want to comment or judge someone who didn't ok publishing the video on a forum and being discussed.

I don't agree with that, sorry. If a video on youtube or elsewhere is Public, then it's open for discussion anywhere. jmo. Exactly how does someone 'ok' a video for being open for discussion? Do they put up a youtube video and add "feel free to tear this apart". Come-on, this is one of those situations where it's ok to comment on one person and not on another. If the comments were complementary, I'll bet you wouldn't have a problem discussing it.

Sure, totally your call.. some forums and pages don't allow comments unless the subject has aporoved it. Just different opinions, I wouldn't want to be discussed on a forum I didn't know existed so I prefer to extend courtesy to others. Do whatever you want, totally an individual choice.

[piedmontfields]

Don't want to comment or judge someone who didn't ok publishing the video on a forum and being discussed.

I don't agree with that, sorry. If a video on youtube or elsewhere is Public, then it's open for discussion anywhere. jmo. Exactly how does someone 'ok' a video for being open for discussion? Do they put up a youtube video and add "feel free to tear this apart". Come-on, this is one of those situations where it's ok to comment on one person and not on another. If the comments were complementary, I'll bet you wouldn't have a problem discussing it.

The public links I posted were simple fodder for illustration. One could have found others...I was not claiming authorship or displaying the video to a group event or gaining any profit from this activity. Because words are challenging for many people, I thought some illustrations might help. Apparently not. So carry on!

MC, I totally get that JJ's approach is not desirable to everyone. Now WHY that is...well, we'll probably each have our interpretations!

[exvet]

I'd like to comment on the use of the term "good" during a lesson and how instructors use it. To be honest, I think I've developed a pretty good sense of when an instructor or clinician is just blowing smoke up one's back side. When I hear 'good' in a lesson I usually take it to mean that I'm on the right track. My instructor is usually very clear whether during the moment or at the end of an exercise during a break to tell me what was truthfully good, what she liked and where we still need to take it. She'll put it in to terms relative to scoring in competition but because she knows what my real goals are, she'll also break it down into why 'this' is good now, what I need to expect for next steps and where it fits into the grander scheme of things, my scheme of things. She tried early on to get me to jump on to the campaign band wagon and every once in a while will resurrect this. I made it clear when we first got together what my goal is for this journey and that I was NOT going to take short cuts in order to place at this show or campaign for year ends, etc. BTDT and do not need x award. As a result she truly is working with me in a way that is very different from her other students. What is nice about it is that she is really focused about working on nothing but the basics in a graduated progression - it reminds me of the old DT article by Lendon Gray that showed pictures of Seldom Seen depicting his carriage and engagement at each level. She nor I have a 'need' to work on a movement so-to-speak. She has pictures of us from where we began (at the trot) to now........Junior is finally looking like a 'real' dressage horse. Perhaps she is able to ride 'through me' because she really understands what my priorities and goals are and I've come to trust her enough to be able to accept the direction and 'just do it'. Of course she and I both know (and she actually states this in her lessons) that I'll have to take over when I feel it's necessary for safety or for the sake of the ride. Obviously we ride specific movements at some point but so much of the basics are there before we do that the movements are easy and there is little to no discussion/instruction on put x hand here, place your x leg there yada, yada. It's much more of a "turn down centerline and ride the leg yield towards me............okay balanced turn, good power, keep him stretching into your hand, 4 strides in ask for more power and make sure your steps are balanced with forward, side ways, forward side ways.........movement over, "now that was good for an 8, you kept him straight the whole time, he was meeting you in the hands with each hind leg stepping into them and I liked the lengthening over the top line and softness in the jaw......"

We all have different needs and learning styles but this is a very basic example of what works for me and I 'feel' it and memorize it and rinse and repeat at home.