Rider score questions

[StraightForward]

I haven't shown dressage a ton, but I am a little mystified at times by the rider scores. A few weeks ago I showed under an "S" judge and got 7's for position in all 3 tests, and a 6 for effectiveness on a 63% test and 6.5 for 64% and 67% tests. It seemed reasonable to me that the effectiveness score should generally track with the overall test score.

Then this weekend my highest rider score was 7 for effectiveness on a test that came out at 59%, in which we had a couple jigging steps in the free walk because I was pushing for a little more swing, and then grabbing the wrong lead because I thought I was setting the transition up in a clever way.

Also got a 5 and 5.5 for position with the comment that I'm collapsing left (a known flaw I've been working on), when I've always gotten a 6-7 even a few years ago when I know my position had more problems than currently. Do judges sometimes just fixate on a flaw (I know they're human, but I wonder what the judging guidance is on this)?

Help me understand!

[Moutaineer]

Just read your other post... L judge... eh. A bee in her bonnet about a position pet peeve? If your local schooling shows are like ours, they are good for an outing but the scores are all over the place and can be biased about particular "things," and training programs , etc.

[StraightForward]

That is kind of my thought. She also gave Annabelle lower gait scores even though I know her gaits have improved this year. I've watched videos of some of the judging symposiums, but I don't think they talked much about how the collectives are supposed to be scored, so I am curious how the judges are told to consider the rider scores in particular. We were over in Pocatello, so I wouldn't be surprised if you've ridden under this judge as well.

[blob]

Effectiveness does not always track with the rest of the test!

You might get a good score because you have a very good mover, but maybe your accuracy is a smidge off across the board--effectiveness score will be lower. You might not have a very fancy mover but you're riding a super accurate and test and the judge feels like you're getting the best possible out of a horse that they think is 'meh' your score might be low-mid 60s because the individual movements are derived from gait scores, but your effectiveness score will be high.

I've often seen my effectiveness score most closely linked to overall accuracy and/or my submission score. In general my position score tends to be higher than my effectiveness score

[exvet]

My position score is almost always higher or the same as my effectiveness score. I have walked away with 7 and 7.5 on position when the test received a high 50s. Usually there is a comment somewhere on the test (most often at the bottom) indicating that my horse isn't either the best suited for the sport/discipline but I got all that I could or that my horse was a wee bit naughty and yet there were moments that showed much promise due to my ability to 'stick' the naughtiness.

We have some very good L grads; but, I still will take the score with the perspective of what is going on that day and how well the judge knows me. I've had S judges who I've ridden with (clinics and lessons) give me some of the lower scores because they know and expect more from me.

[Ryeissa]

I assume that you saw videos of all the rides? Sometimes gaits/position can feel one way and look another.
Ie- your collapsing left- this could be worse then you think?
Just throwing out ideas. Its always amazing to me the difference that can sometime happen between my reality and what the videos show.....
I've always received very fair scores with a variety of judges.

[Tanga]

I was scribing all day again yesterday, so all of this is very close in my head. Remember how much the judge has to evaluate and explain for each test and how little time there is. It's a lot and can be mind numbing, so even the best often do things that don't make sense. Usually I write the scores and the judge does the coefficients. Yesterday I wrote it all, so it is very prominent.

That said, in general, the coefficients tend to be about the same as the scores in the test. In general, they try to differentiate between the position and effectiveness score to tell you something. I would say if you're getting 7's and 7.5's on rider and the other scores are in the 50's, maybe the judge needs so rethinking.

In scribing three times this summer for three S judges, I find that it's not too common to get 7's on position. If the ride is close to the 70's, maybe, but more 6 and 6.5. I would say 95% of the rider scores were 6 and 6.5. It was very unusual to see a 5.5 even for a bad ride or a 7.5 for a very good one. In general, my feeling is that no matter what the level a 7 was the "good" score, and maybe out of three full days of judging (with some VERY nice horses are riders) maybe five or eight 8's (of any score.) It may be around here, though. This area seems to have some of the lowest scoring I have seen.

[StraightForward]

I assume that you saw videos of all the rides? Sometimes gaits/position can feel one way and look another.
Ie- your collapsing left- this could be worse then you think?

No. I wish I had video or photos, but I was by myself 4 hours from home. I don't see how I could have been so much worse with the collapsing thing than I was three weeks ago when I got 7's. Maybe it was just this judge's pet peeve and she decided to gouge me. Just trying to understand the overall philosophy that should be applied to these scores.

Tanga, thanks for the overview of the scores you were seeing as a scribe. Good to know that 6's are so common. I get a little disappointed with a 6, and also good to know I'm not out to lunch thinking that I'm not too likely to earn more 5's under rated judges in the future.

I can't remember if it was for effectiveness or position, but a local pro eventer shared a video of her test recently at a rated show where a train was going by the show grounds and she very tactfully piloted her hot TB eventer mare through a really difficult ride, and the judge gave her a 4. That seemed harsh when many of us would have hit the dirt or retired in that situation.

[Ryeissa]

I assume that you saw videos of all the rides? Sometimes gaits/position can feel one way and look another.
Ie- your collapsing left- this could be worse then you think?

No. I wish I had video or photos, but I was by myself 4 hours from home. I don't see how I could have been so much worse with the collapsing thing than I was three weeks ago when I got 7's. Maybe it was just this judge's pet peeve and she decided to gouge me. Just trying to understand the overall philosophy that should be applied to these scores.

ok, thanks for the info. I would just let it go if you feel you are making progress. Its just one day and one score. I know certain footing or being more stressed can bring out my tendencies, but everyone is different.

[blob]

so, i went back and looked at a handful of my tests to see what kind of comments i had under 'effectiveness' to give more insight into what judges are thinking about under that. Of course I don't always get comments on that collective, but here's the takeaway:

this seemed to be an area to cover things that were consistent throughout the test, seemed within the rider's control, and didn't cleanly fall elsewhere. Meaning--my comments were around: better bend in corners, better accuracy in figures were the two most comment related comments. Of course that says more about me as a rider than anything else. But it does show the kind of things that fall in that category.

[Tanga]

[
Tanga, thanks for the overview of the scores you were seeing as a scribe. Good to know that 6's are so common. I get a little disappointed with a 6, and also good to know I'm not out to lunch thinking that I'm not too likely to earn more 5's under rated judges in the future.

Just FYI, I can't remember the last time I got anything but a 6, and if I get a 6.5, whooo hoo. I think I actually did get a 7 once this year, maybe. i'd have to look. The judge I was with yesterday is pretty generous, and with a full day, maybe one or two 7's for rider? I know this because I was writing the numbers for that all day when normally I don't.

Think of it more like the judges are trying to differentiate the scores in some way, so a not just putting all of the same collective marks, which is too easy to do. And, in general, the position score always seems higher because in the end, position doesn't really matter and it's always effectiveness. So the higher position score is basically saying you like nice, because it's too mean to do otherwise.

[StraightForward]

ok, thanks for the info. I would just let it go if you feel you are making progress. Its just one day and one score. I know certain footing or being more stressed can bring out my tendencies, but everyone is different.

I've let it go in that I'm not taking it personally or anything. I am just honestly trying to understand more specifically how the judges are trained to arrive at the rider scores. The discrepancy under this judge just brought it to my attention and I had a long drive home to think about it.

[Ryeissa]

I went back to my tests over intro-second level on the same horse (over 10 yrs). I averaged 6.5-7.0 for both the effectiveness and seat coefficients. They were always within 0.5-1 point and the comments from the judge made it clear why I received the scores.

The lowest one was when I was nervous and the test lacked harmony. It was obvious why I got a 5 on my effectiveness score.
The first time I would show a level I got a 6, then once the level became easier I would get a 6.5-7.0
My highest score of 74% had a 7.5 position mark.

[Tanga]

I've let it go in that I'm not taking it personally or anything. I am just honestly trying to understand more specifically how the judges are trained to arrive at the rider scores. The discrepancy under this judge just brought it to my attention and I had a long drive home to think about it.

In general, the training is that collective marks should be in line with what is in the test, not much higher or lower. Judges always check the overall score before writing them. And, in general, use the scores a bit to make a point you want to make, often adding the comments about that.

[Ryeissa]

ok, thanks for the info. I would just let it go if you feel you are making progress. Its just one day and one score. I know certain footing or being more stressed can bring out my tendencies, but everyone is different.

I've let it go in that I'm not taking it personally or anything. I am just honestly trying to understand more specifically how the judges are trained to arrive at the rider scores. The discrepancy under this judge just brought it to my attention and I had a long drive home to think about it.

yeah, too bad you don't have any photos of videos to help. It is what it is!
Are you more concerned about the effectiveness score being high or the rider score being low? I think they are not a linear relationship....

[StraightForward]

Well of course I would like to raise both scores. I usually get a better score for position than effectiveness, but I'm OK with seeing that switched. I'd rather not get any more 5's either way, obviously.

[Ryeissa]

Well of course I would like to raise both scores. I usually get a better score for position than effectiveness, but I'm OK with seeing that switched. I'd rather not get any more 5's either way, obviously.

This thread is very interesting and a good discussion!

[Moutaineer]

Once in my life I have got an 8 for rider seat and position. The judge dropped his entire stack of papers on the floor of the already dark and spooky open fronted booth as I was passing C. Laddie teleported to X. I stayed on. We started a couple of movements back and carried on, with Laddie regarding the man and his box with deep suspicion every time we had to go anywhere near it.

I think the score was by way of an apology

[demi]

Enjoying this thread!

[Kyra's Mom]

I don't know. I can't envision any judge giving you a 5 on position. I guess 5 is still satisfactory but you are much better than satisfactory collapsing left or not...my two cents .

Susan

[Lipsmackerpony88]

I have to agree with Kyra's mom, you are a gorgeous rider so hard to imagine you getting a 5.