How would you proceed? (Opinions welcome!)

[Lipsmackerpony88]

I decided to post my own topic on this since I didn't want to clog up the training thread.

Curious how you all would proceed with this. As you know we've been dealing with kissing spine and Stifle issues with Lynx. Progress has definitely been made. My vets, saddle fitter and body workers have all talked about how they are happy with the progress in his muscling on his back. We have injected his back, as well as added hind shoes. I also did a course of Zycosan. Working with the saddle fitter now and he gets body work.

The walk and trot have definitely improved. The spooking is basically non-existent although he's still peaks at stuff not in a super nervous way though. I'm definitely feeling a nice swing in the trot that gets better as the ride goes on.

But we were having issues to canter. He started out really great and then was tossing his head mostly in the transition. We have yet to try it since he got his back reinjected.

So my question is, how would you all proceed?
The saddlefitter comes back out on the 13th. Saddle was asymmetric in the panel in which I feel is him causing that but of course that might have felt uncomfortable to him too.

I'm torn between to be spend a few weeks just really building up the trot? Maybe lunge once a week and add in some canter there first? I try not to lunge much but maybe it's a necessary evil In short doses right now?

Or would you proceed to try the canter to see what happens? I also have some thoughts of whether there's SI involvement as one vet thought that and then thought it got better but now I'm not so sure...

Thank you guys.

[StraightForward]

So I think I've mentioned to you before that a friend of mine rehabbed her TB's minor kissing spines, as verified with radiographs. She worked with a trainer who is a bit of a specialist in it, and they honestly did a lot of long and low. Not quite A2R style, but she rode in like a hunter under saddle frame for about a year. She would canter, but it had to be accomplished in a stretchy frame; no cantering if it could only be accomplished with a tight/inverted back. That's about all I know as far as details since we weren't at the same barn for most of that time. Around this time last year, she started riding with my dressage instructor and putting the mare back together, and they were successfully showing 2nd level this summer with scores into the mid 60's at a recognized show.

With T, I just had her back imaged, and she does have a couple processes that are close towards the back of the thoracic spine, which makes sense given how she doesn't use her back super well. I've started backing her up in hand before every ride, making sure to keep her head lowered so she isn't just inverting and moonwalking back. I think it was Gillian Higgins who recently posted some research about the benefits with this. Should help stifles as well.

I think the key is consistency, and sticking to a plan much like a soft tissue rehab program. I hope you can get it figured out!

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Thank you SF! Yes I lately have been encouraging a lower neck, nothing crazy but definitely stretching into the contact. I especially try and encourage a long neck as well. I honestly haven't asked for anything else as far as frame in the last month.

I also do a lot of backing in hand as well. He's great about putting his head down for it... Sometimes I even wonder if he's too low.

So maybe we will continue mostly doing walk /trot and if it feels like he's especially loose in the back that day we will proceed lightly into the canter, trying to especially focus on the transition?

[Lipsmackerpony88]

My gut is to not rush it but there is a point where enough time, consistency and strength has been built that if the canter is not going well, we need to dig deeper. Hopefully not though, he's getting better and better at the trot so I hope that's a good sign.

[blob]

I agree not to rush it, but I will also say that to me canter issues often live in their own island a bit. A lot of work on the trot, typically doesn't help or improve the canter, unless it's a basic fitness you're trying to build up.

This is not to say you need to canter him around a bunch. But I would say that if he is struggling with the canter, there might be additional rehab/treatment/support that is needed.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Yeah it's tricky because I don't want to encourage a behavior either (even though I believe that he's telling us it's either uncomfortable or difficult.) I guess we will just test it out in small doses. It could have just been a saddle fit issue as well, I suppose.

[StraightForward]

Thank you SF! Yes I lately have been encouraging a lower neck, nothing crazy but definitely stretching into the contact. I especially try and encourage a long neck as well. I honestly haven't asked for anything else as far as frame in the last month.

Jillian Kreinbring has this description I like of the horse "pushing the browband away" when their back is engaged in a way that will open up the vertebral processes. Whether they are stretching or in a higher frame, this is a great image for me to tell if the horse is going forward and working over the back. My friend would ride her mare pretty low most of the time. I'd say maybe ears at wither level as an average?

With canter, I don't think you have to abort mission right away if he doesn't stretch, but it seems like the ability to stretch is a good barometer. I was talking to her about T and it made me more aware that she's able to stretch better in canter to the right than to the left, so now I'm more conscious of working out any bracing and letting go enough to stretch on the left (which oddly, is her better lead).

[Moutaineer]

Going back to my experiences with Laddie, who had neck arthritis and when he came to me purportedly could not/would not canter, but ended up taking me to Regional Finals at 2nd level, I'd be getting the saddle symetrical first. You may well find that makes a huge difference. He was a total princess and the pea about saddle fit.

I think staying on top of saddle fitting is such an important part of how to manage these horses with back/ neck issues. That and hoof balance.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

SF, that's a good description. Luckily he's an easy horse to get out into the bridle, and he's getting good about stretching easily. I'd say right about wither level is where he is right now. In the past I like to keep him a bit more up and open but this seems to be a good sweet spot for him and his back right now.

Mountaineer, yeah I need to pick the saddle up from the fitter this weekend. The shocking thing is is it's been regularly checked by the fitter when they were just out here checking it 3 months ago. So it's kind of shocking to see that now it's so wonky in the flocking. But it all makes sense too lol both me and my trainer kept feeling like the saddle was off center or something!! Poor Lynx. But I'll probably have the fitter out more frequently through this to make sure nothing is getting wonky.

[Tanga]

I have no good feedback on this, but maybe a suggestion. It's my suggestion for everything--massage, body work. The scapula release is my answer for a lot of things. Tossing, tight heads and back seems to come from the bracheopcephalus and muscles in the thorasic sling. I play with it a little different all of the time, but all of the horses LOVE the scapula release, and miss tight Quinn also loves the pushing, pulling, stretching of the the glute muscle just on either side of the dock of the tail. I definitely see a difference.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Tanga, he definitely is tight in the scapula area. Are you talking about the release where you kind of press your hand into the crease by their shoulder?

[Aleuronx]

Wouldn't the same rehab/building work of purposeful long/low, hacking up and down hills, TONS of walk poles be as good for the back issues as it is for stifles? Especially since he's had time-off building a good working topline is key. I'd think adding these in if you aren't already is a good place to start. In terms of cantering I would post the canter, frees up their back so they can strengthen by doing and helps the rhythm. The more straight lines the better and short spurts of canter until he can support the canter with a good working topline.

In addition to as perfect saddle fit as you can get. You've got a good guy there LSP and now just need time!

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Aleuronex-yes in theory I don't think the work should change too much from before but more long and low than we did before for sure.

We do walk poles and there are a couple great little hills on the property that we utilize. That being said I think we are on the right track with what we are working on but I do think he needs more of it. More fitness. Now that we're getting into fall here soon I can be more consistent, so here is hoping!

[Tanga]

Tanga, he definitely is tight in the scapula area. Are you talking about the release where you kind of press your hand into the crease by their shoulder?

Yes. Mine LOVE it. I hold their head for my balance and they bring it towards me and I can get my whole hand in there. The more I do it, the more they love it.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Thank you Tanga! It makes perfect sense. But what a wonderful video to show two different types of horses.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

I just chatted with a gal that has a horse very similar to Lynx. She has a QH with mild Kissing Spine in the same spot. Her horse had SI pain as well and I know she had treated hocks. What was most notable, was she describes the same issue with the saddle wanting to sit to one side. She said she eventually had to get a different saddle and use a shim on one side for quite a few months. This was also while she was treating his SI. She said finally he's even down and she doesn't need to use the shim anymore. And they just went to championships for second level
She told me she almost gave up. They treated the back and the hocks first. And there is a lot of improvement in the trot but the canter was starting to become a mess with bucking and such. She said after shockwaving his SI, he's been so much better. She did say she finds he needs to be quite fit to stay comfortable.