Olympics

[Tanga]

No one has started it! So I will. VERY happy to say Peacock actually has replays of everything for only $18 a month, and you can only do one month. Good, because I can barely stay awake during the day, so trying to watch middle of the night wouldn't happen.

I'm mostly through day one. Thoughts.

I always "practice" judging as I watch, and sometimes I'm right on with agreement with their scores. Where I differ seems to be, as always, names getting higher scores on movements they shouldn't, and not names not getting some lower scores on things they did really well.

I'm not really happy with super high scores on some of the "big" movers, like Hester's Fame and some others where the passage is just whack. It used to be if the hocks were exaggerated and that under it used to be call pedastaling. And them some really irregular piaffe is getting score very high.

I do like Wandres' and Bachman's rides, though not really sure what to make of Bachman's horse. BUT, Wandres' horse broke into the trot after very nice one tempis, and they just ignored it! Whaaa??

Clearly a very electric environment that set some horses off, and made it harder for some when it was cooler.

And Jane. Hmm. Before eliminated, I guess she was nice, but . . . She was trained by Alice Tarjan, and when I saw her ride Serenade in Omaha it was completely whack and bizarre, like realy wrong in the hind end and incorrect. (Possible vibes of CP kind of stuff.) I couldn't believe she got even those scores there. Jane gives me the same vibe.

Not loving the filming on this. Half the ride is from above. And I know what it looks like in real life versus in person can be so drastically different.

Oh yeah, WHAT THE HELL with British what's her name EVENTING rider commenting on everything. She doesn't know what the hell she's talking about half the time.

[mari]

I haven't watched even a minute yet, tried via VPN a few days ago and it was just a mess (I'm in South Africa). So I gave up. I've been reading the play-by-play type threads on COTH, and following on Fb. I'm hoping at least some of the videos will be available on youtube in the next few days.

[Flight]

I can watch it for free on the 9now app. Maybe possible with a VPN? I'm loving it because it's on at a reasonable hour and I'm home from work this week in time to watch it
I did fall asleep last night after a few hours though....
Carl's horse was very short and tight in the neck I thought. The American horse that was eliminated for the nick on its fetlock, i guess tough luck, it might not have been noticed if it didn't have a white sock?
I've just started watching day 2. Glamourdale did look nice as did Freestyle. The first horse from Spain refused to do its first 2 piaffes, which must have been disappointing for the rider.

LOL Lucinda Green commentating... normally she says some massive clangers, but she's actually not as bad as I've heard before.

[Tanga]

Flight--agree about Carl's horse, Fame. This is what I don't like the trend of--tight, no neck horses. Adrienne's horse is like that. That was Jane with the nick. Just starting day 2. Glamordale is lovely, but still got an 8 for an "extended" trot with no overtrack. they did catch he siwtched a little behind in a pirouette and got a 5.7

I am loving I can stop a rewind and look at things again and check out the scores.

[Moutaineer]

Lucinda is an institution.

I haven't watched day 2 yet, but a lot of day 1. There were some nice rides. I just loved Becky Moody and Jagerbomb. The Brazilian guy about 3 rides in won the "hose i most want to take home with me." There were several others.

I'm not a huge fan of Fame. It was a very clean and competent ride but it rather lacked soul to me.

Helix... well... I know he was super-tense at the start but even when he relaxed he basically epitomized everything I personally dont want to ride. Tense, leg flingy and with his nose so crammed into his neck I'm suprised he could breathe. You could see Adrienne trying to get him to stretch out but it must have been like trying to ride a roadster.

I sound negative, but there was a lot to like in many of the rides. I'm looking forward to watching some of day 2 later on.

It was interesting to watch with DH who is only a peripheral horseperson but actually sat and watched for 2 hours. His comment was that some horses (like Jagerbomb) actually looked useful, as if you could go somewhere on them and so practical things, where the leg-flingy nose to chest-y ones were all about the flash and looked like they were uncomfortable and unreliable to ride. I thought this was a pretty astute observation!

[zevida]

I’m still on the stadium jumping for the eventing. Not enough hours in the day to stay caught up!

The eventing dressage test was fun - about my level so I may try to ride it myself just to see how it goes. Such a short fast test.

I have found it very strange in the eventing that they can substitute. There was a horse and rider in stadium jumping who didn’t do dressage or cross country. They have to take some penalty points to do it but it seems to defeat the purpose of eventing and the same horse and rider doing 3 phases. I guess since they no longer have a drop score it is a way to ensure enough teams don’t get totally knocked out. But still it’s odd.

[Tanga]

Ya'll need to finish up so we can discuss! I've been feeling like crap, so watched all of day two today. Mountaineer, I agree with your husband, Jagerbomb was impressive. I don't remember all of the horses, but there were a lot of REALLY nice horses and riders I wasn't very aware of, and very nice to see some countries we don't usually see put in some impressive rides. There were a few I felt I could beat, but nothing really painful. There were definitely some being super reactive to the venue, and sadly, Suppenkaspar was one of them. Helix I think, too.

Mostly, the judging is good. I am disappointed some "lesser" riders are not getting some high scores here and there where they really deserve it. First day was the funky looking little bay that had a KICK ass extended trot that should have been a 9. And disappointed the "better" riders got overscored on those same things. Glamordale with just tracking up gets an 8, Wendy's was horrid and undertracked like 10 inches and got 7.3 to 7.5. And there were some GOOD, SOLID, CORRECT piaffe passages like Greek Air, Toto Jr. that got underscored 6's and 7's, while the weird shaking, swinging, double tapping "extravagant" ones that should have been in the 5/6 range according to the FEI judging standards, were getting high 8's and 9's (Wendy, some Dalera, Indian Rock.) I want to see more 5's in some of the high horses for this as well as more 9's and 10's overall. I saw a lot of really nice stuff that should be 9's and 10's, and was mostly 7's, maybe 8's. If we can't find regular places to give some of these super horses these scores, what's the point? It's not perfect, it's excellent. Take away the points for Werth in the trot work and give her the 9's and 10's in t canter (which was nice) and you can bet the whole sport would follow the example of correct, not extravagant incorrect.

[Flight]

I need to catch up on the rest of yesterday's tonight.
Zevida, I think thats weird how they can sub in a reserve in the showjumping, the Aussie team did this. I preferred when they had 4 in a team and took the top 3 scores.
Tanga, I do agree that it is disappointing that they don't reward those riders who are truly correct.

[zevida]

Still slowly working my way through day 1.

I saw the Singaporean rider a few times in Wellington. She did a good job recovering from a disastrous start - I thought if I was here I’d bow out but she got him back. But then after her salute she dropped the reins and I guess he hopped out of the arena over the rail and they didn’t exit at A. I wonder if she got eliminated?

I loved the Lithuanian rider. Such a relaxed and content pair, loose curb, she gave the reins forward several times throughout the test. Unfortunately not a world class piaffe but I’d take upper 60s at the Olympics! I liked their way of going more than the tight necked horses like Carl Hester who I’m watching now.

[zevida]

I also like the new format for both dressage and jumping where round 1 is qualifying only and scores don’t carry over to the final. Makes it a bit more exciting and competitive in the second round.

[blob]

I'm not fully caught up, but some observations from me:

I thought Jessica VBW were quite over-scored in the qualifying (haven't watched them in the team final yet).
I didn't like Lottie's test much--glamourdale seemed tense.
I don't love the way Isabell's horse, Wendy moves--something a bit jarring about her gaits. But she seems happy in the work and i do like her frame in most of it.
I think Dinja and Hermes look lovely together.
Freestyle has some lovely moments and also some funky ones.

[Tanga]

I finished with all of it.

In response to you, blob, pretty much agree. I like Dalera and Jessica, but overscored. I generally really like Hermes, also who is correct.

I think Glamordale is OK, but the incorrect p/p is not being scored as it should, let along the "extended" trot.

Isabel Werth/Wendy is the heart of the problem I see. One of the highest scores for an incorrect piaffe/ passage. What I think you're seeing is that she is not bringing her legs up and down in one fluid motion, as the movements require. What you see with her is swinging, double tapping legs, sometimes front, sometimes back, sometimes both. It's so bad sometimes her hooves make little circles or literally tap the ground in the middle of "one" step. The FEI rulebook clearly says this can't be over a 5. WAY back when I started dressage 40 years ago with Denny Callin, Zorn was considered an incorrect mover when he did this and really beaned. Now it's rewarded. In the freestyle, the worst example of this was the poor EIGHT year old Polish horse who literally made two circles with his foot each step. Indian Rock is pretty bad, also. Wendy also has that "look" almost all of IW's horses have--that flat back, doesn't sit, snaps up the legs, but almost with a dropped shoulder, with a nose out look. They do generally seem happy, which is weird. It honestly looks like these horses were all Parra trained, or Mexican dancing horse style. They are so young they don't have the balance and strength it takes so many years to gain to have a stable, fluid motion in the gait. You can see it in her weird, off looking "extended" trot that undertracks about 10", and gets over 7's. Wendy, only 10 and from Heglstrand. Sigh.

Freestyle and Zepter are correct horses, and it was a shame they had some bobbles and didn't have the best days, as with the Swedish horses. Honestly, Jagerbomb seems almost to be the most correct horse in all of the movements and had a lovely freestyle. I think if they hadn't put in those awful music stalls with the pirouettes, everyone would have seen how magical it was.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

I haven't watched everything but even my 12 year old daughter asked if they got marked down for busy mouths and swishing tails...and looking at the scores, I guess not.

Some good rides and some definitely scored higher than seems correct!

Tanga, I think Jeremy Steinberg wrote an article years ago about the "halo" effect.

[zevida]

I enjoyed watching the freestyles (and so did Ryan Gosling!! He and his wife and kids were there). I liked the winner’s ride - harmonious and without the tension of some of the other high scorers. I thought generally the music was pretty boring across the board.

The crowd did a really terrible time clapping to the correct beat of the music whenever they tried to clap down final center lines. So distracting lol

Also it was nice they kept Lucinda quiet during the freestyles and just occasional comments from the male commenter. Also it is hilarious how obviously annoyed he is at her and how often she is incorrect and he has to correct her. Watching the jumping now and it’s still the craziest dynamic where he makes snarky asides to correct her but we can all hear it!

[Moutaineer]

Its getting so much better than in previous years, though. I watched a lot and there was much to be happy about.

[Tanga]

lipsmackerpony Swishing tails and working mouths is not marked down as is. Responses that show resistance work are. So, if the horse just chews all of the time, or is one of those horses that opens their lips when concentrating, that's fine. It's steady. If (the easiest one) you ask the horse to back, and the mouth opens, that is marked down as resistance. Same thing for the tail. If the horse swishes it in an upset, angry way in response to an ask, it can be marked down. Some horses are just swishers, esp. mares in my take. Dalera's tail is all over in time with what she's doing, Matine used to do the same thing. Quinn is a tail swisher. Quilla is a mouth opener. If I ask her to piaffe in her halter on the ground, she opens her mouth and clicks her teeth in time. My first GP horse was the same. Some horses are physical fiddlers, like people. (I'm a fiddler.)

I am SO happy they shut Lucinda up for the freestyles. WHY the hell do they have someone commenting who has no clue. I was SO annoyed she kept saying the wrong the about the extended canter and change. It has to be BEFORE K ON the straight line, and she kept saying it was good when the waited until K, which makes it a lot easier. That and the stupid comments that it's OK for the piaffe to go forward a bit. NO, IT''S NOT. In the GP it is supposed to be 13-15 steps ON THE SPOT. In the I-2 you can go a meter forward. There have to be people who are actually knowledgeable they can get for the job.

[zevida]

I know this is a dressage board, but I can’t resist talking about the jumping finals individual. They were so exciting!

Neither American medaled. I think it was Karl Cook who had a bad spot into a double and took down both fences and then he got very emotional afterwards, and almost made me cry!

My next favorite after cheering for the American riders was the horse King Edward, and he and his rider had a miscommunication where the horse was going left and the rider wanted him to go right and then they almost ran into the starting timer, the horse stopped, and the rider kept going and fell!

Then there was the young swiss rider who lost a stirrup early in the course, did the whole rest of the course with only one stirrup, including a water jump, and then dropped rail on the last fence!

I love dressage, but it just doesn’t quite have the same edge of your seat aspect as the jumping.

[Chisamba]

I like Daleera and if she was over scored she had to be to make up for all the crap that was over scored before her.

I also like Alice Tarjan and Jane. I don't quite know why they get so much hate. She basically gave up Jane so MO could ride in the Olympics and supposedly get a better score for the USA. It didn't work out well because all is a sudden instead of letting the horses in and out of the gate individually, they started expecting them to pass each other at the gate and Jane decided she wanted to leave with get the exiting horse instead is go into the electric atmosphere. I don't know if you noticed but after that the suddenly started paying attention at the gate again.

Lucinda was so irritating.

I thought some relaxed correct rides were very underscored. I didn't take names. Lol.

None of the music in the freestyles really got my feet tapping.

Yes the jumping was more interesting. It just is. You know when the pole goes and when it stays up and the clock. They shoulds just drop dressage and eventing from the Olympics and let them be world cup sports and only keep the show jumping in the games.
I don't expect the top riders will appreciate my opinion on that

[Josette]

Martha Stewart explaining DRESSAGE to Snoop Dogg.

https://www.today.com/video/snoop-dogg- ... 6523845922

[Tanga]

zevida-agree that jumping final was the most amazing thing ever.

Chisamba--I think what you suggested may well happen. Eventing is insanely expensive and time consuming to put on, and dressage takes a lot of time. I can't see with more and me places not wanting to host the games, that that will happen a lot longer. The need to have world cup sports in such a way that it invites a lot more, though, like in the Olympics. I really enjoyed seeing riders from so many places we don't usually see, and I thought pretty much all of the riding was good.

I think everyone agrees Lucinda is so annoying. I think they gagged her for the freestyle. I also think none of the music was great.

I had a phone call today with my old friend, Dennis Callin. If you're old enough, you remember him shortlisted for the Olympics way back when for Zorn, and he's been all over competing his whole life. He's been in England for decades with his partner now, though still comes back to the states to do clinics. I got all of the best gossip from him. He knows it all and knows everyone. I know a lot of the dirt of the people from way back when from him (that I will not share.) We had a talk because I asked him about the scoring of the wonky p/p on his page, and no one who doesn't want to get blackballed can talk about that publicly. We both pretty much agreed on the wonk p/p, though he said he had to go back and look at that Polish horse and really see how those legs are all over. We both liked Dalera and Hermes, doing the correct, fluid p/p and getting good scores for it. We both also liked Total Hope. (He sees them more than me so knows them off hand--I had to take notes.) In England he was offered to going into being judge based on his years of competition at that level, but won't do it because he knows he won't get hired for scoring the right people highly. We spent a lot of time "chin wagging" about the state of dressage, because he learned from all of the old gods, whoa, like 50 years ago, and a lot of what I know is from having him for clinics a couple of times a year and he stayed with me, so a lot of talking about this, and him helping me with my Appy and my first GP mare.

He says Wendy is a lot better since IW got him, so ugh. That extended trot and p/p is better. He also knows the truth of what is really going on in a lot of these yards, being in the UK and knowing CB and CH, and not buying a horse from CH for a client because it had a broken jaw. He knows Janet Foy from way back in the day because he trained up the horse she rode to get her GP scores. It sure would be nice to find a way to get people who have repeatedly trained horse to GP to be judges.

I also brought up how I saw a LOT of really, really nice half passes (and other movements, that funky bay's extended trot!) in all of the horses through the ranks that were underscored and he agreed, too. Mostly in the GP I pretty much agreed with the scoring, but as a judge I'm always looking for 8's, and I saw a LOT of 8's-good and 9's--very good and some 10's-excellent throughout that didn't get those scores. At this level the judging is set up to set the lower people to not get the scores.

I don't know how to fix it all, and no one really cares about me, but I keep putting it out there. People are reading. It's easy to say "rolkur," but that's all a false flag--get rid of nosebands, no young horse tests, no GP before 10 and no CDI's before 11 or 12 would solve a lot of the issues we see that are caused by lack of necessary time and training needed.

For fun, here is a pas de deux Denny and I did 27 years ago! I talked him into doing it with me, did the music and choreography, and went over it the day before, and I was telling him what to do through the whole test. Yeah, I know my Appy's neck, but he was happy and sound and doing the work to 31. (If I had just cranked his head back against his neck it wouldn't have been so different than some horses now.) Make sure to go to the very end of it and after the awards and check out the one tempis down the whole side of the arena we did together. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5yN-U0vLaQ

[blob]

I know many on this board disagree, but I like IW. Her horses always seem happy in the work, many stay competitive into later years. Not everything is perfect, but her horses are usually not chin to chest . and I like that ost of her horses are ones she develops up, rather than taking on the made horse. I know Wendy is an exception to this. And admittedly I don't love Wendy. But the end of their freestyle at Aichen, really looked like both of them were laughing and dancing together and that's ultimately what we're going for.

I've heard there's a lot of talk about equestrian sports and LA and where they will be held, how they will be managed, maybe even if they will be included. I will be quite sad if dressage ends up leaving at some point. But I also think the sport is in a bit of a crisis moment.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Tanga, thanks for clarifying. I had an OTTB that had a busy mouth but he was a fun ride, just very game. And my daughter's lease horse has a busy mouth too. Still, it's not my holy grail to see. But you are right about Dalera, who I very much enjoyed and loved the riding there.

[Flight]

Tanga, that would have been a very interesting conversation with your old friend. All the goss but with what sounds like a very experienced eye. I would love to have eavesdropped!
I just wish the top riders would stick to riding the movements correctly. I know it's all about what wins, but IW has been successful because she's followed the trends in judging. But I bet she knows that the piaffe/passage she does is not truly correct, and all these videos of riders whipping horses to get their legs up higher is a result of wanting flashy movements.
It really annoys me.
Blue tongues and strong contact with horses BTV with cramped necks and still having their bits pulled back in their mouths.

I love that video Tanga! How cool.

[Chisamba]

So I watched all the freestyles again. I still hate the mouth of the horse Freestyle, Den. ( ludrop dufor) and I mean hate it.

I think the top three horses were top three . But I'm not going to argue scores. I love Jessica and Daleeras heart warming appearance of effortless partnership.

Tell me why you don't like Wendy?

I thought maybe I would have placed Lottie Fry in the silver position above Isabel.

[Tanga]

Chismamba, going back to watch the freestyles as I am answering so I can answer clearly.

Freestyle/Dafur--Her p/p is mostly correct, though you can see on this third day she's not as solid, but nowhere near as bad as the ones I mentioned. Her mouth--I see what you mean, but it doesn't really bother me. She moves her lips a lot and clacks her teeth or opens her mouth in time with movements. That's what Quilla does and my first GP mare did this, and I think more a mare thing. But it's on the line of them showing their thinking, as I said to lipsmacker. It's not a resistance, but them. And I would imagine in this environment, how she deals. Catherine is keeping a steadier hold on the curb than you usually see her, but it is very short, and Freestyle came from CD , who has the iron grip everyone loves and praises where the head never moves. If I can see a mouth open in time to the movements, I know the iron grip isn't there and the horse hasn't been inured to it. It's the horses that never open their mouths and you see the iron grip (Wendy) that bother me.

Wendy's extended trot is atrocious. It under tracks 10" (Glamordale's in not good in that it just tracks up) and just looks unhealthy and should not be over a 5. The piaffe/passage is incorrect with the massive swinging in each step, making circles and double tapping each step, which BY THE RULES, is supposed to be a 5. I'm trying to figure out what I see in a lot of these horses that have an incorrect p/p that get great scores with her--it's like their whole shoulder is dropped and rolled forward and down, but the legs "articulate," and of course her horses never sit and are often dropped in the back. I'm not even looking at social media and her "blue tongue" pictures from this ride, but she always seems to have an iron grip on those tight reins. And ugh, the pandering "Mandy/Wendy" song. It doesn't enhance the horse or the gaits, but she's telling the judges they need to give her the highest artistic scores, whether it works or not.

Watch Hermes. I actually thought the music better than others, though the transitions and slow stuff was, ugh. The piaffe/passage mostly goes up and down in one smooth move (though this third day no one was perfect and there were bobbles in everyone.)

Flight-I would actually say it's more the judges are following the trends in riding because if the right people don't get placed, you do not get work, especially at this level. They DID makes some changes and start marking down the "extended" trot where necks had no lengthening a little, and IW adjusted some in her riding this, but you can still see how many horses have no lengthening of the neck and get really high scores.

So when you look at all of those "flashy" movements where the legs are flinging up, circling, hesitating, going sideways, double tapping, and whatever else you want to call it, you need to think of all of those awful videos of the whipping and where that really comes from. We never saw this back in the day even though a lot of people did go to specialists to help p/p. Until we can get people, judges, riders, and trainers to start equating that and going back to correct despite the judging . . .

Here's a great video from Anja Baren that is from horses at least 15-20 years ago when it was "not that bad" showing the incorrect swinging and movement with the horses silhouetted. https://www.facebook.com/wehorseofficia ... 7721169716

[Tanga]

Lipsmacker. I made a video just for you! Trying to do a website to store info. wasn't working, so trying Facebook. Quilla does ALL kinds of things with her mouth: https://www.facebook.com/61564272925096 ... 9543647150

Chisamba, you inspired me to do this. I have all of the comments about each horse I videoed and the massive difference between correct and incorrect, but it's useless with no video. Ugh. Here's the point:

I videoed a bunch of horses in the GP at the Olympics, some randomly and a lot of the "top" horses, just to show the last piaffe/passage line to demonstrate this. Unfortunately, the video is not postable. It is shocking how many piaffe/passages there were that, by the judging criteria, must be a 5 or lower and got some of the highest scores, Wendy, Indian Rock, and Maxima Bella being some of the worst. Look at the Parra video and see where this kind of movement comes from.

NOTHING WILL CHANGE until the judging changes. [And let me be clear, I don't blame judges because if they don't give the right people the right scores, they don't get hired. So HOW do we make it safe for them to judge correctly, by the rules? ] Look at the Olympics and just the piaffe/passage. Both are supposed to be a smooth, up down gait and by the FEI judges guide, it clearly says swinging, swaying, double tapping, hanging, circles, or whatnot are a 5.5 at most.

FEI%20Dressage%20Judging%20Manual%20-%20Effective%201%20January%202024_0.pdf
"THE PIAFFE:
Piaffe is a highly collected, elevated, rhythmical diagonal movement giving the impression of remaining in place. The horse’s back and top line are supple and elastic. The hindquarters are lowered; the haunches with active hocks are well engaged, giving great freedom, lightness and mobility to the shoulders and forehand. Each diagonal pair of legs is raised and returned to the ground alternately, with spring and regularity.
In principle, . . . the height of the toe of the raised forefoot should be level with the middle of the cannon bone of the other supporting foreleg. The toe of the raised hind foot should reach just above the fetlock joint of the other supporting hind leg. " NOT above the knee.
"Moving even slightly backwards, irregular or jerky steps with the hind or front legs, no clear diagonal steps, crossing either the fore or hind legs, hoof-stepping or swinging either the forehand or the hindquarters from one side to the other, getting wide behind or in front, moving too much forward or double-beat rhythm are all serious faults. Stretching out the front legs to carry more weight (wide base) or narrowing the base extremely is also seen as a basic mistake. " The first sentence is being given very high scores even though it is clearly a serious fault and by the guide below, should be a 5 or below.
Aim of piaffe:
To demonstrate the highest degree of collection while giving the impression of remaining in place.
Scoring
Below 5 or lower depending on the severity of the problem: losing regularity throughout, diagonals visibly breaking
up
- Horse breaks piaffe after a few steps, canters or walks
- interruption with momentary standstill
- clearly moving too much forwards (~ 4 m+ = half steps)
- several clear steps back
- showing only ~ 50% of required number of steps
- extreme lack of straightness, against Athlete’s aids
5 or below: some loss of regularity, diagonals not always
recognizable
- moving too much forwards (~ 3 metres +)
- a few clear steps back
- showing clearly not enough steps (~ 30-40 % less)
- strong balancing from side to side
- extreme swinging or permanent clear crossing with front- or hind legs
- crossing and toe-stepping/ hoof-stepping throughout
- extreme bracing against front legs, base becomes very wide, horse thereby avoiding to take weight on hind
legs

THE PASSAGE:
Passage is a measured, very collected, elevated, regular and cadenced trot. It is characterised by a pronounced engagement of the hindquarters, a more accentuated flexion of haunches, knees and hocks, and the graceful elasticity of the movement. Each diagonal pair of legs is raised and returned to the ground alternately, with cadence and a prolonged moment of suspension.
In principle, the height of the toe of the raised forefoot should be level with the middle of the cannon bone of the other supporting foreleg. The toe of the raised hind foot should be slightly above the fetlock joint of the other supporting hind leg.
The neck should be raised and gracefully arched with the poll as the highest point and the nose line close to the vertical. The horse should remain light, and soft “on the bit” without altering the cadence. The horse’s back and top line are supple and elastic, the impulsion remains lively and pronounced.
Irregular steps with the hind or front legs, swinging the forehand or the hindquarters from one side to the other, as well as jerky movements of the forelegs or the hind legs, dragging the hind legs or showing double-beat in the moment of suspension, or shortly before touching the ground are serious faults.
Aim of passage:
To demonstrate the highest degree of collection, cadence and suspension in trot
Scoring
Below 5 (lower depending on severity of the problem.) : - insufficiently regular, breaking passage for some steps
- trot like, lacking cadence (throughout)
- almost walking behind
- distance of passage is much too short (only approx. 50%)
5.5 and below
several uneven steps behind or in front
- several steps with double beat
- significant swaying in shoulders or hindquarters
- crossing front or hind legs throughout
- hind legs too far out behind, so transitions to piaffe are negatively influenced

I am not going to address every point. Piaffe needs "the hindquarters are lowered. . . each diagonal pair of legs is raised and returned to the ground alternately, with spring and regularity."

So we see the same issue in passage, "the height of the toe of the raised forefoot should be level with the middle of the cannon bone of the other supporting foreleg. The toe of the raised hind foot should be slightly above the fetlock joint of the other supporting hind leg" NOT above the knee. " jerky movements of the forelegs or the hind legs, dragging the hind legs or showing double-beat in the moment of suspension, or shortly before touching the ground are serious faults."

The faults I see are being rewarded are "several steps with double beat, crossing front or hind legs throughout" instead of the 5 or below required.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Thank you Tanga. It does make sense.

[Chisamba]

Back when this was the udbb I made silhouettes of the top olympic horses piaffe and passage and obviously removed the riders. For effect I put in a couple or ringers ( myself and a Spanish riding school rider and a French rider) and asked people to rank or score them not knowing who they were. I did screenshot and picked each horse and riders best moment but all in the same posture.
Firstly almost no one had enough confidence chip in and rank them without knowing who they were. After all the work I did I was disappointed. But people who were full of themselves about rollkur and blue tongue were afraid to pick in case they accidentally picked a horse/ rider they had previously blasted. The current Charlotte, or Parra hatred for example, would make people scared to pick a horse not knowing if it was them or not. I remember when Charlotte was brave enough to be the demo rider at the Dutch young horse testing. They brought her horses she had never seen. Young horses. In a very electric atmosphere. And she got on each one and rode every one of them well. That against Ed Gal, for example who tried to take Toto Junior out and literally could not do a posting trot. I once saw an ape riding in a circus and it was reminiscent of that.

Now as for reading the rules. We all know first is all that they are not rules. They are guidelines. My Anglo was so sickle hockedand long backed, he could sit and use himself perfectly and he was not going to track up. A horses with a low set neck can stretch and arch perfectly and still not appear to be correct. A horse with wide ribs and narrow chest is never going to be able to lift its forearm horizontally , and forcing lift with rubber bands is not showing correct training. Dressage should be for every horse even at the highest levels so this pedantic obsession with the rules is just , IMHO, ridiculously averse to the natural conformation of horses.

Ans I used to be a pedantic adhere to the rules type.

Tango you in particular, every time you pay a video you rightly explain your horses confirmational difficulties in achieving perfection, but you do not give the to riders the same leeway.

[Tanga]

That's a bummer, chisamba. Too many people don't really want to do with the real issues. It's easier to make simplistic declarations. Interestingly, Global Dressage Analytics is working on a program to digitize tests to do just this thing. It would be a great teaching tool. Can I ask, how do you make a silouette? I don't even know how to do that.

Yes, we all know the rules. Interestingly, on the International Dressage Riders pages made a comment about banning nosebands, no young horse tests, and no GP until 10, or international. Kyra Kyrklund replied and said, but Matador would not have won the Olympics because he was 10. Everyone jumped on her adoringly. Rather than challenge that she didn't answer the question (because I'm not that stupid) I asked her what she suggested. She said the judges need the follow the code of points--the guidelines. And all judges ARE supposed to follow them. The idea is to adhere to the rules and allow for variations of what the same level of good looks like in different horses. Every judges program does this that I know, and every judge I ever talked to about it has had it. (That's why I like to scribe--I can get perspective.)

I 100% agree with every horse being able to DO it differently. The big tadoo going around is the "atrophied" withers of Dalera, Chipmunk and Suppenkaspar, due to incorrect riding bad training and bad saddle fit. Bullshit. So, arguably, these are some of the most successful riders and horses in the world, and I have never heard a bad word about them from what I know, are good at their job, and have all resources to do the best, and there horses are doing some of the best work in the world and for for years. It makes zero sense that they are doing it all wrong, let alone abusively (yes, people are saying that.) So, if they did it "right," their horses would be so much better? I don't know how to explain why it looks like that, but that all horses don't look the same and can do it well even if it doesn't look "right." Dalera is one odd looking horse and I don't "like" the neck, but there is no argument she does almost all of it very well. And on these threads several Olympic riders (one US, one Canadian) replied to a person that TB's and similarly built horses just never look the same as others no matter what you do and what saddle you have and agreed about it and posted they had similar experiences with their horses .

Chisamba. Do you have an example where I have not given "leeway" to the riders for conformational "difficulties in a horse?" I think my whole point above is showing that. The horses that don't have "extravagant" movement, but clearly have very correct trained and produced p/p are getting underscored, and the horses with more natural talent and flash and incorrect p/p are over scored. That funky little bay with conformational issues was NOT given credit for that kick ass extended trot. Oh, BTW, spent the whole day judging a middle and high school version of the intercollegieate dressage shows which has the same kind of tests, but focuses only on the rider's ability to accomplish what they can and they have only 10 minutes t warm up a horse and sometimes do 3 or 4 horses.

We all have our blind spots. I know you were upset I kept mentioning CD's having horses too tight and young and not liking it, and you seem to really dislike Gal and all of that.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Dressage is a little subjective at least in viewing. I really enjoyed some of Becky Moody's rides and some of the French riders. But I don't have nearly as technical of an eye as many here at that level. I gravitate towards a more relaxed ride. It's just what appeases my eye but that doesn't mean that some of the more hot or tense rides weren't more technically correct in some (very hard) movements. I tend to not watch a lot of really high competition dressage. I enjoy watching more Amateur's put in a really nice test. It's more relatable to me I guess! One thing I did really appreciate watching in the Olympics was the transitions. I could appreciate how difficult some of those are at that level among other things!

I always learn so much here though and enjoy reading all the discussions. The sport is definitely not black and white right now, that's for sure!

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Tanga, I also agree with your point that because of a horse's conformation, that these horse's have really poorly fitted saddles is so laughable to me. Just think about how much these horses are worth. No way they're just putting on badly fitting saddles for sponsorship. The cost would not justify the means!!

I also think photos are really deceiving. Video less so. In person is the best way to assess anything

[Tanga]

Lipsmacker--I 100% agree with you on Becky Moody and the french riders. Those should be at the top, though it is OK to see horses you like at that top that are super energetic, because they aren't wrong. And you are right on the transitions! SUPER hard. I think a lot of people would agree with me, I think keeping the collected walk and then passage is the hardest one--such a contrast of slow, try to be relaxed into the most high level, power needing movement.

The social media blast on these horses as being atrophied is pissing me off. And I agree, even photo and video aren't very accurate to assess. I am always surprised how some horses look great on video, and I found them awful in real live. Serenade comes to mind--she always looked good to me in videos, but live at Omaha it was some kind of distorted front end flinging and wonky hind end that looked deformed. It's amazing how different it can be.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

I'm getting around to finishing watching some of the freestyles. I was not a fan of Indian Rock nor the ride he was given. But I just loves Becky Moody's ride and Jagerbomb. I also wasn't thrilled with how tight in the neck Fame was but I wonder if that's more conformation than anything else. I enjoyed Dalera in the freestyle more than the other ride I watched of her.

Overall I will say I enjoyed this Olympics more than some years past.

[Tanga]

I'm getting around to finishing watching some of the freestyles. I was not a fan of Indian Rock nor the ride he was given. But I just loves Becky Moody's ride and Jagerbomb. I also wasn't thrilled with how tight in the neck Fame was but I wonder if that's more conformation than anything else. I enjoyed Dalera in the freestyle more than the other ride I watched of her.

Overall I will say I enjoyed this Olympics more than some years past.

Good eye, lipsmacker! Agree 100%. Indian Rock, Wendy, and Maxima Bella had some of the most bastardized p/p. I agree on everything, though at the end of the freestyle Dalera was getting tired and not staying steady in p/p.

[mari]

For fun, here is a pas de deux Denny and I did 27 years ago! I talked him into doing it with me, did the music and choreography, and went over it the day before, and I was telling him what to do through the whole test. Yeah, I know my Appy's neck, but he was happy and sound and doing the work to 31. (If I had just cranked his head back against his neck it wouldn't have been so different than some horses now.) Make sure to go to the very end of it and after the awards and check out the one tempis down the whole side of the arena we did together. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5yN-U0vLaQ

So cool, love the cheering of the crowd