Deneb:

[Rosie B]

Holy crap!! It sounds like the outcome was as positive as ANYONE could hope for, given the circumstances. Some days, even with a fairly laid back horse, all you can get is 5 minutes of focused work. So to get that with a very tense horse with some fear issues after experiencing a boat load of stress is a testament to your work with her and your relationship. Well done you!!! Today is a new day.

[Chisamba]

Omg! My mare would have had a major meltdown and God only knows what else could have happened!

Good for you to think quickly and apply the forward aids and staying calm throught this episode. I would have done the opposite, pulled back and want to bail off. I am a timid, defensive rider.

I have to ask, how long will you stick with trying to break her fears into smaller pieces? She sounds like she is getting better, but for me, I would have given up by now.

Hayburner : i retired her a year ago. I was not enjoying working with her, and i decided that it was not fair to make her so afraid constantly, in that i would not work a horse that was hurting physically, so perhaps it was unfair to work a horse that was hurting mentally. I put her out in my field with the retirees at home.

I do not feed the horses at home, nor to i give treats. Its my sons chore to feed and care for them, so when i go in to interact with them its grooming, handling, checking, etc. Deneb was always the first to greet me. She would run over, and stick with me and try to move other horses away from me.

I also noticed, as the year went on, that her natural fear reaction in the field became less extreme. No more hitting fences, no more flipping out, less bolting, more looking at the reaction of the others before running. So i started to do a bit of in hand work on the round, at home. I have no arena at home so its simply working in a field. Her responses were better.

I then decided to ride her a couple of times and see how she was. I did not challenge her much, just tacked up and hopped on and rode around. She seemed to be okay with it. she fitted me better, carried me better and it did not seem like torture to either of us in fact i started to enjoy it, so i decided to give her one more go. I brought her to the barn and decided that if it seemed ever to get to the point that i was stressing her too much, i would stop for good.

So far, she has shown a presence of mind and degree of confidence in obedience that I have felt positive about how its going. I actually started to keep this sort of training blog, albeit on a BB so help me evaluate my progress and get input. fate, the universe or karma has given me opportunities to work though her fears. I do not know why it happens when i am on her, but the mirror breaking, or the guy walking on the roof, two things that challenged us, both happened when i was on Deneb. Why one on another horse? Why her? perhaps it is just giving me the opportunity to face the worst of her fears and get through them. ( or else we are just unlucky)

So, i guess the answer is, so long as i feel she is not becoming ill from the stress, continuing to enjoy human interaction and is not scaring me so much that i no longer enjoy working with her, i will continue and hopefully we will both learn and improve from each other.

I do feel that working with her has made me a better rider when working with the other horses in my care.

[cb06]

I am very glad you are both o.k. and as I think about this, there is so much positive here for you and her.
One of the hardest, yet most important, things to know about any horse is how they handle pressure and unforeseen circumstance. When I was horse shopping I even asked outright,..."if sh!t hits the fan, what is the worse you think this horse will do or has ever done?" (and hope for a straight answer).
Under the circumstances you described, many horses, even seasoned, 'quiet' type horses, would have lost their marbles, ditched their rider and headed for the next zip code. Seriously, have seen many examples of exactly that...

The fact that Deneb kept her feet on the ground, you on her back and really tried, and KEPT trying, to keep her focus with you...is huge. HUGE!
..and that you were able to 'open the door' to forward without abandoning her, and allow that energy out in a semi-controlled fashion..also HUGE!
So many would have tried to slam that door closed under the circumstances, and for a young, sensitive, forward horse, that can be claustrophobic and actually make things worse.

I'm sure there will still be ups and downs, normal with a young horse (any horse?), but she showed you her character and there is a lot to like and nurture there. She also showed she can step-up to a little work (minus the loose horse, shattered mirror, dripping and panting )
I think you should give yourself a very big pat on the back, and give your horse a hug...very enlightening in many good ways.

[kande50]

...
Under the circumstances you described, many horses, even seasoned, 'quiet' type horses, would have lost their marbles, ditched their rider and headed for the next zip code. Seriously, have seen many examples of exactly that...

Oh, you mean the rider might not be able to keep them on the aids?

I think a big factor in whether or not a horse like this works out has a lot to do with whether she ends up with a rider with a good enough seat to ride through the meltdowns, and whether that kind of rider is willing to stick with her.

In some ways I think it's more rewarding to work with a horse like this, but in other ways less rewarding because it takes so much longer to reach goals that would be so much easier with an easier horse, which means that the motivation to stick with it has to come from within.

[cb06]

...
Under the circumstances you described, many horses, even seasoned, 'quiet' type horses, would have lost their marbles, ditched their rider and headed for the next zip code. Seriously, have seen many examples of exactly that...

Oh, you mean the rider might not be able to keep them on the aids?

I think a big factor in whether or not a horse like this works out has a lot to do with whether she ends up with a rider with a good enough seat to ride through the meltdowns, and whether that kind of rider is willing to stick with her.

Successfully handling a situation like that requires skill and timing and guts and a little luck and a horse willing to listen and try...and Chisamba and Deneb certainly showed they could do that.

[Sue B]

Holy Carp! While that must have been a wee bit terrifying, I would say that you had an awesome example of just how far you and Deneb have come on your road to rehab. Congratulations! That event in no way reflects poorly on you as a trainer; quite the opposite in fact. So, give yourself a well-deserved pat on the back and give Deneb an extra rub down in celebration of an honest-to-goodness break through.

[kande50]

That event in no way reflects poorly on you as a trainer; quite the opposite in fact.

I agree, because I can't think of any way that her reaction could have been avoided by being more careful. It wasn't as if she was deliberately over faced, or put into a situation she shouldn't have been in, or that anyone could have predicted.

[Chisamba]

I actually had a decent ride today, she was sassy but not scared. Coming into heat I think, but she Is not very mareish on heat, just a touch pushy.

[Chisamba]

Thanks everyone, I really appreciate the input and support. I was very happy to get on a reasonable normal a lightly pushy girl today. She was not stiff or obviously sore, showing how athletic she is, although my muscles creaked as little.

We did simple work, stretching when she would, working on tempo, shallow curves and circles, and leg yield, with just a few circles of canter.

I am optimistic.

[Tuddy]

I love reading this. It makes my journey with Tuddy seem that much bearable and the goals attainable.

[Chisamba]

Deneb is due for her dental, the appointment is next Friday. In the meantime, once or twice I nearly made an excuse not to ride. I was too tired, or my stomach was upset. Both times it was true, but I made little contracts with myself. I'll get on and walk for ten minutes and if I'm still tired, I'll quit on a good note. Well, funny how once I start, I'm more inclined to continue. So I talked myself into riding her, and she has been very enjoyable to ride.
The first two or three times after the mirror madness, she got strong in the canter, but soon settled and worked through it

Today I was circling past the broken mirror and she got strong, bulged in the shoulder and tried to head to the open door, but a reasonable half halt in the outside rein brought her brain back to the circle.
I have found that if I want to have consistent, safer and enjoyable rides, it is considerably better if she gets worked more often and under saddle.

She was on 24/7 turnout and I have changed that too, she now comes in at night and has one companion, not the whole group, in attempt to minimize her herd bound tendencies.

I feel elated enough about her progress that a friend had to talk me down from potentially showing her. She suggested more outings with less pressure than a show.

[Sue B]

Woohoo! Wonderful update Chisamba. I'm with your friend though, maybe go so far as to ride in the warmup with other horses this year but without the pressure of actually warming up for a class.

[Chisamba]

Woohoo! Wonderful update Chisamba. I'm with your friend though, maybe go so far as to ride in the warmup with other horses this year but without the pressure of actually warming up for a class.

I agree, it was a moment of madness. Lol

[khall]

Excellent news! What a good girl Deneb!

I like just hauling them off even if I don't ride, see how they handle the trips. I generally like doing this as a youngster, it does not always happen though.

BTW the ASB g did not vet out for my friend, he had some changes in his right stifle, she had to pass. So still looking.

[Chisamba]

Excellent news! What a good girl Deneb!

I like just hauling them off even if I don't ride, see how they handle the trips. I generally like doing this as a youngster, it does not always happen though.

BTW the ASB g did not vet out for my friend, he had some changes in his right stifle, she had to pass. So still looking.

That is disappointing

[Tuddy]

I feel elated enough about her progress that a friend had to talk me down from potentially showing her. She suggested more outings with less pressure than a show.

I feel the same way about Tuddy. I know he would do well in a show, but his brain would probably explode.

Excellent update, by the way! I enjoy reading your story about Deneb.

[Rosie B]

I totally understand where you are coming from with the show idea Chisamba... For some people (with their own trailers) it is easier to pack up and haul horsie around to different places for low-stress outings, but for me, if I was going to be going through all the effort of finding transportation, packing, etc, I might as well be showing. So Bliss's first off property outing was a schooling show, and his second was a general English show at a fair ground. But, he is totally a different type of beast than Deneb, so I think your friend is right - the more places you can get her out in a low stress low key environment, the better!! And very positive updates after the mirror incident!

And for fun... here's a pic of Bliss schooling at the fair ground as a 4yo the night before the show. In retrospect it was probably too much to ask of him, and he was terrified, but very, very good:

[Josette]

Rosie - love your photo! Reminded me of many years ago as a 4-Her riding at our Fair grounds. All the noisy amusement rides were next to the horse rings with all that noise and activity. Plus we had to cross a highway bridge to get over a multi-lane highway from the barns to the fair grounds. I look back on it now and recall we took it for granted. Now both my pony and I would need some TQ and a huge glass of wine to do it. LOL!

[Chisamba]

Deneb today.


I showed Kimba at the fair last year, yes the ferris wheel and balloons and noises are challenging, Rosie B, Bliss looks remarkable composed

[Quelah]

There is no "tiring her into relaxation".

Like! My horsey consigliere for…gosh a quarter of a century now...she's an equine veterinarian and an FEI dressage rider, said something once that really stuck with me, though it didn't stick so well that I'll be able to quote her exactly but it was something like "When people ask me how to work a hot horse down I tell them they probably already have, hot horses tend to get hotter not quieter when they are exhausted." That's been my experience as well.

[Kathy Johnson]

I am so glad everyone and everything turned out ok. We make decisions in emergencies and in the heat of the moment and the speed of the situation and we have no idea how they will turn out. They are really scary and we are always doing the best we can do.

Here's a so far sure fire tip I've learned in runaways and loose horse situations. If everyone, people, horses go to the main gate, the runaway will invariably stop at the gate. If you have to slide the riding horses out the gate to stand on the other side so they don't get smashed into as the runaway stops at the gate, that can help. Their instinct to get out that gate is pretty strong. This is not criticism, it's just something I don't see discussed very often and maybe we could take it to another thread.

[Chisamba]

Our main exit is into the barn aisle ,. Narrow with not enough room in the roof for a horse and rider.

In my opinion keeping them both contained seems a much safer option.

I do not see many circumstances where sliding the ridden horse out would work unless I had multiple people on the ground.

Of course at shows where there is a gate keeper, and often many volunteers those mighty help where the loose horse can be diverted, the rider safely dismount and comes out. Or with a calmed ridden horse, be diverted outer while still ridden

[Chisamba]

I am happy with Deneb,. We are working through some training characteristics, but she is standing relaxed in cross ties, a first. And working into the aids when worried ratherv than running away.

Yesterday when I was riding a friend was watching and twice she crackled her water bottle right as w we were passing. This type of thing used to bother Deneb, but she ignored it.

Another friend had a dog on a leash, dogs being another thing that caused a major issue in the past and she tensed and pointed her ear at the dog, but that was the extent of her reactivity.

[Chisamba]

I quick update on this thread. I think Deneb is earning consideration as a real horse. She managed multiple small distractions today with barely speeding up, and I did not even think she might bolt. I am beginning to be less about relaxation and more about the correct response to the aids, so today on the circle i release the outside rein after spiraling and and out a bit in the canter and she actually stretched to the bit, while maintaining her rhythm, tempo and circle.

I am working with her on understanding that it is not go go go till we run out of steam and then stop, that there is a gear called working with relaxation.

I am really beginning to be optimistic, but it will be time to test it all soon by taking her somewhere and seeing how she deals with riding in an unknown environment.

I have not been confident enough to do it yet, even though i have thought about it a lot.

[demi]

Very nice update. Stay patient...it can be so hard sometimes but you're working with a difficult horse, as you know!, and doing a really good job.

[Flight]

Pretty good improvements, especially if you are now thinking of taking her out somewhere else!

[Chisamba]

The weather has turned cold with freezing rain. I closed the barn doors. It brought the return of high anxiety Deneb. Watchful, looking for danger, over reacting. Perhaps the biggest anxiety for her is not being able to see through the space around her ? She knows for sure what the tractor is. Its used around her daily, but the sound of the tractor when she is in the indoor is apparently terrifying.. her turnout is about the size of the indoor. It is alongside the indoor, so she can often hear the tractor without seeing it. It does not bother her there, but bothers her when she is inside.

Proving that its a journey that can take backslides at any time.

[demi]

Deneb reminds me in some ways of my mare. Emma is sensitive and reactive, too. She is lightboned and long legged and her balance is noticeably affected with me on her back. She is fine if I just sit like a passenger but when I take up the reins and ask her to carry herself in balance with me, she can get tense and defensive. She has gotten much better in the year that I've had her, but when changes in the routine have happened, like carrying a whip, or asking for more collection, she gets tense and defensive again.

I am thinking that Emma might be afraid that with a rider on she won't be able to get away from danger is necessary.

Time and patience, I keep telling myself. I also try not to worry too much about the backslides...

[Chisamba]

Demi, I finally have Deneb to where she is more relaxed under saddle than not. If she is tense ans high headed and shifting around, she will take a breath and relax when i get on.

It took all year to get her trust.

But she is not completely trusting yet so it can be human anxiety inducing to get on when she is breathing fire and up neck dropped back tense...

I am lucky in that i have had her from the beginning so building trust started immediately.

[demi]

I am lucky in that i have had her from the beginning so building trust started immediately.

Yes, I thought about that. I'm glad she has an understanding person in her life. Still, it will take a lot of thought and work to develop her. Keep up the good work.

[Moutaineer]

Ladies is like that about sounds outside the indoor. I'm sure their hearing, which is so much more acute than ours, can identify that it's the damned tractor that they see and hear every day, so I do wonder sometimes if it is fear or avoidance.

[kande50]

Ladies is like that about sounds outside the indoor. I'm sure their hearing, which is so much more acute than ours, can identify that it's the damned tractor that they see and hear every day, so I do wonder sometimes if it is fear or avoidance.

If you mean deliberate avoidance to get out of work or something, I don't think so. Because how many riders actually get off a spooky horse and untack him and put him back out?

Even those of us who get off when our horses get too worked up still continue doing something with them, and in my case anyway, it's usually lungeing, which is a heckuva lot more work for him than what we do when we're warming up under saddle. The difference though, is that I don't think my horse minds working, but he does want to feel safe, and he just feels a lot safer when I'm on the ground with him.

The proof, I think, is that despite the fact that I get off him when he gets worked up he continues to gain confidence and become less spooky. So maybe when I get off he actually perceives it as, "Well, look at that. She's not afraid of it, after all. So maybe she wasn't hiding up there behind me and making me go first because she knew it was dangerous"?

[amygdala]

kande, i think this is an important insight-- i've found getting off and going first to be quite helpful --not always but often.
ithink it depends on how the horse perceives the rider-- trusted leader, just-another-rider, someone-who-hurts-me, etc

[Chisamba]

The thing about Deneb that I find different from other horses I have worked that are watchful, is that she is more nervous and more tense and more fearful when i am on the ground next to her, than when i am riding her. I think perhaps she is the very first horse like this that I have worked with. There were many times that I used to, in the old days, not get on her because she was too tense in hand and on the ground, but i have put on my big girl breeches and got on to ride, even if she is up and snorty. A good ride will then allow her to settle and i get off once she is relaxed and approach the in hand and ground work again, working on relaxed responses.

Since i have trained her I am pretty sure this is all my fault. What was the actual mistake? I was more confident on the ground and tended to push her to try and get her through her tension, you know the whole wet saddle blanket work it forward technique. On her back i am more inclined to focus on relaxation and safety. As a result, she is more inclined to feel safer when i am riding her. As every horse teaches a rider, she has taught me that the whole technique of keep them busy ride them forward, when they are nervous, does not actually work with high strung horses. I see these auction riders get on a hot high strung horse and go blowing along the rail, and while i admire them for their confidence and ability to make that look good, I am not, and probably have never been that rider. My skill is not in riding the disobedience, it is in preventing it. So it is that we adapt our training techniques to what our skills are and progress horses accordingly. So long as we are consistent and fair, and the horse continues to progress, I happen to think its okay

I happen to think that horses that are more confident when the rider is on the ground are only so because the rider is more confident when they are on the ground. The rider/handler takes the leadership role. I you can be calm confident and inspiring when on your horse, getting off to handle a difficulty becomes unnecessary. JMHO

[musical comedy]

I happen to think that horses that are more confident when the rider is on the ground are only so because the rider is more confident when they are on the ground. The rider/handler takes the leadership role. If you can be calm confident and inspiring when on your horse, getting off to handle a difficulty becomes unnecessary. JMHO

I would agree with this. I admit that I am not good on the ground, for a variety of reasons. I feel much more competent to handle things on their back, assuming of course, that the horse has some training and understands the aids.

I used to be in a situation here when I had 4 horses, turning them out one by one. OMG, after the first one went out, the others were lifting me off the ground to go. It was dangerous. Yeah...I know, my fault, but it is what it is.

[Chisamba]

So, I am a nanosecond away from giving up.

On another thread I mentioned how she tried to leave the indoor via the mirror whole I was riding her.

It has not much improved. In various training situations she has reverted to strange behavior. We have done many trot poles, cavaletti and small jumps but in a recent trot pole lesson she took to rearing, backing up and being over the top in resistance. I slowed way down and walked a pole as if she had never done it before and built her back to small x rails but this demonstrates a clear decline in performance.

She has resumed some long ago traits, the least desirable being running into the wall with her shoulder and leaning in.

After a review of my training log I finally realized she does well through the winter, and I want to cry over her in the spring and give up in the summer.

Duh.

I ordered regumate to suppress her hormones. If it helps I'll keep you informed.

[khall]

Chisamba, wow that is pretty extreme mare behavior but give it a try. Have you thought about having her spayed? You are giving her way more chances than I would for sure. Good luck and stay safe!!

[musical comedy]

This is a shame, as she is so pretty and a nice mover too. On a positive note, at least Chisamba shouldn't feel it is her riding as the cause. Just think of how many riders that have only one horse that behaves like this must feel. Many blame themselves, when it is truly the horse.

I have had young horses tried to push me into a wall though. I don't think that is uncommon. The other stuff she does, like running into things, shows a lack of self preservation. That worries me.

I hope the Regamate makes an improvement. I might also try a short course of ulcer meds. You just never know.

[Chisamba]

Khall. I may be wrong, but the seasonal aspect may point to a solution.

MC... I have treated and tested for the usual suspects.... Lymes, ulcers, pain, acupuncture....with no obvious change.

[demi]

The seasonal aspect would make me wonder. I'd try the hormones, too. Good luck and keep us posted.

[orono]

This sounds like a terrific plan, hopefully it works well for her/you. Looking forward to updates.

[Hayburner]

Hopefully getting her on Regumate will keep you from giving up on her. If it doesn't help you may need to find a different job for her, which is sad as you have put your heart into making her an enjoyable ride.

As for spaying, I have a friend that had it done to her mare and it didn't help at all! She's still a strong Morgan mare!

Keep us posted !

[Chisamba]

hayburner i have been told that if regumate really works then Spaying may work, if it does not help, then spaying will not either. I am not certain that hormones are the cause, so it really is a last ditch effort to solve the problem, if it does not work, then , as you say, she can find another job.

[Anne]

I hope that Regumate helps your lovely Deneb. You seemed to be making such good progress, but running into walls/mirrors is just plain scary. Keep safe, and keep us updated!

[ASBJumper]

I hope you find a solution, too, Chis!

My mare has really strong, painful heats too. She was so miserable one year she rubbed herself hard enough on a tree branch to tear her vulva open. She has never been dangerous under saddle when in heat but just unhappy - tense, giraffe-necking and tail swishing. It was not that evident when she was young (3-4 yrs) but it got worse once she was fully mature (5+). She is way, waaay worse in spring/early summer. No issues otherwise.

Another thing to consider - I had minor chewing/fussiness/curling issues with my mare for the longest time. Was always on top of it with my vet doing regular floatings, but my vet kept suggesting having an equine dentist do her and I kept balking at the cost. When I finally had it done, it was a revelation (and talk about a huge wave of guilt). Her mouth is pretty messed up - very uneven, she develops a big wave on her right side (lower jaw), and the floatings were just sort of keeping things "at bay", but never really properly fixing her bite. The dentist did a fantastic job, explained how no vet could possibly do what he did with just a powerfloat tool, and when I rode her 2 weeks after she was a comPLETEly different horse.

Something to think about if you haven't had it done already... my mare never slammed into a wall or anything, but when she was in Dressage training between 2013-2015 she would often take the bit, clamp down, throw her long giraffe neck in the air and just blindly skitter sideways or forwards, her mouth like iron, and my friend (who was riding her for me) had no control. Her heats were hard on her, yes, but the whole time she also had a really messed up mouth and was desperately trying to tell us...

[Chisamba]

I took Deneb to an equine dentist early on, they x rayed her jaw and did a float. we dealt with young teeth not coming in correctly but on a recent update all problems were resolved.

Update: she has only been on the Regumate for a week, and my vet said it would take a full cycle, 21 days, to really tell. However today I put her on cross ties. This is not an event. However she does not stand well in the x ties, you have to have everything right at hand, saddle bridle, grooming tote and pad, because I cannot walk away and leave her tied. she telescopes her neck up, fidgets, sways around, gets very anxious etc.

So today I had her in x ties, and she just stood. Head relaxed, she enjoyed her grooming, and so i walked away, to test. She watched me go but remained relaxed. No sign of frantic anxiety. My friend walked in and did not even realize it was Deneb.

[Hayburner]

WOW - What a difference some hormones can make....You aren't even at the 21 day mark....Fingers crossed this new attitude carries through under saddle...

Your a turn over every stone kind of girl!!!

[Chisamba]

WOW - What a difference some hormones can make....You aren't even at the 21 day mark....Fingers crossed this new attitude carries through under saddle...

Your a turn over every stone kind of girl!!!

I will feel like a right idiot if the answer is so simple after such a long time. It took me how many years to associate the anxiety with hormones? I ride so many mares and am not accustomed to them displaying the type of behavior Deneb has due to hormones. Goosishness, moodiness, tail swishing, obvious heats etc, yes, but not just sheer anxiety.

[khall]

Well chisamba you did stick it out and crossing my fingers hoping you figured Deneb out! That is way more than most would do considering what Deneb has done under saddle.

[Srhorselady]

Sounding positive! Keeping my fingers, toes, and everything else crossed for you and Deneb.