Moutaineer's horse shopping thread.

[Moutaineer]

Oh, brilliant, Josette, a phone number! I'll call her in the morning

(And Khall, yep.)

[blob]

I'd be interested to see proper walk video of the PRE. There isn't much in the video and a few of the steps they showed made me think he might have a tendency for a lateral walk

[demi]

Good point. I didnt even notice there was very little walk . I watched again with a more critical eye and saw other things I hadn’t noticed before.

[piedmontfields]

The bay PRE is my type of horse, but very different from some others in this thread.

Looks like walking and riding that neck long will be among the training work to be done. But the willingness and sensitivity are among the nice attributes. Some folks find that quick hotness/tension really irritating---but I tend to like it because I am basically a lazy rider and I'm willing to communicate calm rhythm.

Will be interested to see what you think!

[Josette]

PF - You better clarified the Temperament 7 score for the bay. IMO this is a critical factor to consider for rider horse partnership and suitability. Since I'm in the 60+ age group I immediately step back from a T score above 5 - while it is fine for someone else. These are both very nice horses and I admire them. They also are very different not just by breed but by their prior training, show experience (or lack of), external exposures and tolerance of rider.

[khall]

I agree Piedmont. It all depends on if the rider is ok with that much sensitivity but imo it also depends if the PRE can be retrained to not be tense in his work. I’m not sure with this one. I’m surprised at the lack of lateral work shown considering the trainer rode with NO according to her bio. This guy if he rides like the PRE I rode in Spain would be one you sit in the middle and your aids are minuscule. The one I rode in Spain was so sensitive and a bit mental when I first started with him but by the last ride I wanted to take him home.

Joplin is this sensitive but she does not have the tension shown. There is enough WB in her to tamp that down a bit. I still cannot overrride her with my aids which I find refreshing after riding not so sensitive WBs

[tlkidding]

I do not love that PRE - there's almost no contact at the trot (probably the reason we don't see any lateral work) and at the canter with more contact, it looks tight, possibly heavy, and he's quick to drop his sternum and unload behind.

I like Bivemmo - consistent, looks easy, if not yet able to truly sit and collect. I have a horse with challenging neck confirmation, but it wasn't until PSG and starting the half steps that he really was able to carry his chest and poll up in all of the work. To me, Bivemmo looks similar. If he is able to build more sitting capability, he's plenty nice enough to get 60% scores for your medals through Silver. I only saw one slow behind change (still within the stride) and 2 that were clean but close behind. I don't see either of those being a long term problem if you know what you are doing and don't keep doing "bad" changes when schooling.

If he's still available after this weekend, I'd definitely take a look.

[Moutaineer]

Yes, Bivimmo is still my top pick.

There's more walk work and more lateral work on the "warm up" video for the PRE. The walk looks OK to me. But yes, can you please stretch forward honestly into the contact at the trot!

Oh, and as well as going from a 5 to a 7 on temperament, it seems to have changed from being a PRE to an "Iberian Warmblood," whatever than might be, between the two ads.

[piedmontfields]

I appreciate tlkidding's comments. I have a friend with a horse with similar conformation challenges. Now that they are truly showing 4th and schooling for PSG is the horse able to carry himself in a new way---just due to what he is working with. But it has taken years of systematic work to build strength.

[blob]

I think most sellers don't consider a horse sold until it's sold. So, even if the lady comes out and likes Bivimmo, if he's not too far it could be worth scheduling a visit. Until she does a PPE and makes an offer, I'm sure the seller would love to keep interested people coming.

[blob]

Ok, I have some more horses for you....

I really like this one located in WA temporarily. He's above your budget at $35k. But most people price horses knowing that people will offer less. So could be worth considering/asking about. He's TALL. But seems like a really good boy and a nice mover with the right level fo training. I think his canter and walk are really, really nice. He is a bit closed in the throat latch but that wouldn't worry me too much as I think that's more how he's being ridden and given that he is not listed as hot, I don't think it would be hard to fix:
https://warmblood-sales.com/horse/avanti-1

I don't know if AZ is too far for you. But this mare could be interesting. She seems like a good citizen and a nice mover. But the video only shows her in a low and at times long frame, so she looks more like a training level horse in that video. But they say she has a clean single change, so I would ask for video on that. Also says she could use more practice on the trailer though she does load (not sure how to read that). But could be worth asking about:
https://warmblood-sales.com/horse/endura

[Kyra's Mom]

I like Duque. Seems like a kind soul but for the training I see and the fact that he is most likely not a purebred...$30K seems way high.
Kyra is an Iberian WB. It is the designation IAHLA gives to Andalusian/PRE crossbreds. Probably means he either doesn't have PRE papers or he is a crossbred?

Susan

[khall]

It looks like he is branded on his left hip. Do they brand crossbreds? Is he US born or imported?

[Kyra's Mom]

I like Avanti. He is a bit younger too. More time to do good things.

As an aside...I am just drooling over the nice footing. It doesn't take much to entertain me.

Susan

[Moutaineer]

Yes, I've seen both of those ads, Blob. I quite liked Avanti, too. I need to watch the video again.

Endura--while a cute looking mare, for a 2007 model, she doesn't have enough for me, and any hint of a trailering issue and I'm utterly not interested. I know, it can be trained, just not by me. Not happening, no way, no how, nope, nope, nope!

There's one down near Atlanta (which is an easy, if rather expensive, flight from SLC, so not as ridiculous as it sounds) https://warmblood-sales.com/horse/bellacor.

Going to see Bivimmo requires booking a flight and getting on a plane, and I'm not going to do that on the off chance he doesn't sell... I'm next in line, and will hop on a plane next week if he is still available.

I can drive to see Duque, long drive, but doable. Yes, I think he is priced too high, especially as he's out in the NM boonies, but I suspect it's one of those "difficulty letting go" situations. I need to call her later today and get more low-down on him. (The fact that I haven't got to it yet probably speaks volumes...)

[piedmontfields]

Yes, the PREx is way over-priced, especially in that location. Avanti looks like your "type" and is a great age.

[khall]

Mountaineer American WB make sure she does not have draft in her and if she does (Belgium or Perch) do a test for pssm1. Got one sitting in the barn a boarder that is pssm1

[Josette]

2 more sale sites in the WA area - one is for the Avanti gelding Blob mentioned above.

https://www.svensmienkdressagestables.com/horses

https://www.summervalepremierdressage.c ... s-for-sale

[StraightForward]

There's one down near Atlanta (which is an easy, if rather expensive, flight from SLC, so not as ridiculous as it sounds) https://warmblood-sales.com/horse/bellacor.

This mare just looks fun, like the type you could show on Saturday and trail ride on Sunday. Plus a great age so she should have lots of good years left. It's a high price for a cross-bred, but that just seems to reflect the current market.

I'm suspicious of the gelding in WA, because I see sales horses from that trainer frequently, and most of them have shot up in price to the $60-80K range recently. Makes me think this one has a problem, but I could be wrong.

[blob]

There's one down near Atlanta (which is an easy, if rather expensive, flight from SLC, so not as ridiculous as it sounds) https://warmblood-sales.com/horse/bellacor.

Mountaineer, this horse is an hour from my house and less from where I keep my horses. So, if you speak to the sellers and would like someone to go take a first peak at the horse, I am happy to help. I can investigate any things you request, video my ride, and let you know what I think. Of course won't replace you taking a flight down, but I might be able to help see if the flight is worth it.

additionally, if you did decide to fly down, I could help you find other prospects in the area to make the trip more worthwhile.

[khall]

The mare in Atlanta I bet is a draft cross probably Percheron. I have an extreme bias against draft crosses in particular Percherons. They are built to pull not carry. This mare does have some nice training and I’m sure she could do 3 rd but these big guys are not light footed. Juliet is TB/ perch and is a very physical ride. Not my cup of tea

[Ryeissa]

yeah, a nice horse but not a "warmblood". wish they listed the breeding- I watched the videos. Yes, I would like to ride the horse but it looks a bit luggy. Could feel better undersaddle but looks like it could get really really heavy. Might be something that isn't a problem but would have to ride to be sure

[Moutaineer]

This is why I ask you guys! Thank you all for your insights. I wondered at the Avanti price as well. And good catch on the pssm potential.

I spoke to PRE lady this morning. I'm running around now, so I will report back on him once I've had a chance to digest it.

[blob]

I'm suspicious of the gelding in WA, because I see sales horses from that trainer frequently, and most of them have shot up in price to the $60-80K range recently. Makes me think this one has a problem, but I could be wrong.

I've also seen him with a few in the $20kish range. I do think Avanti is priced very well. But I think it is worth asking. If they know of a problem that has kept the price low, i imagine they would also disclose!

[blob]

The mare in Atlanta I bet is a draft cross probably Percheron. I have an extreme bias against draft crosses in particular Percherons. They are built to pull not carry. This mare does have some nice training and I’m sure she could do 3 rd but these big guys are not light footed. Juliet is TB/ perch and is a very physical ride. Not my cup of tea

FWIW, I know a perch cross well who is one of the nicest rides I've sat on. Comfortable, super light on the aids, honest, forward but not at all hot, very balanced. I agree that many can be clunky. But that horse alone has made me very open to perch Xs.

[Ryeissa]

yeah.....avanti is too low $$$ - must have a vet flag out something? nice lovely horse from the video though. My fav besides the pinto mare

[khall]

Rye yes they can often get heavy but the worst imo is that they just are not maneuverable. Do not find lateral work very easy.

Blob did you know that 60% of Percherons carry the pssm1 gene? The mare here while not symptomatic is pssm1. She requires certain feeding because of her genetics. She has tied up before. I’ve worked with others one I liked but he was not a dressage horse but all around er.

Again I have a bias against drafts. Just not my thing. Juliet was advertised as American WB.

[Ryeissa]

Rye yes they can often get heavy but the worst imo is that they just are not maneuverable. Do not find lateral work very easy.

yeah, my type is the opposite so I can't really comment having little experience in draft Xs. I liked the grey horses' expression overall....a lot would depend on the goals and price for that specific rider.

[Ponichiwa]

Other horse-shopping FYIs-- I'm suspicious every time the walk is shown only on a long rein. May be worth getting some collected walk video before traveling just to make sure the walk stays pure when compressed.

[Ponichiwa]

I will also say that in every price bracket there's going to be _something_ imperfect. It's just figuring out which imperfections you can live with that's the struggle.

[Moutaineer]

Yep, Ponichiwa, so true! Frog kissing is difficult and dangerous during a pandemic, too, so I appreciate everyone's input so much as it helps me narrow down what I'm really looking for.

I'm not in any kind of rush, so I can hold out for the right thing with whatever tolerable issue it comes with.

[Moutaineer]

So, the PRE has "trust issues." He's a Mexican import that came in as a Working Equitation horse, was a stallion til he was 9, has been owned by a 70 year old lady who can no longer ride, but to his credit by the sound of it, he didn't kill her while she still did, and is basically scared to death of everything, poor guy. He's never been to a clinic or a show, or anything,

If I were looking at a project and he was third of the price, I'd give it a go. But he's not for me at this phase of my life.

Back to Avanti for a minute, though... What's with all his horse's necks? Do you think it's just the way they are photographed? They look normal on video (horses all look a bit thin to me, which could be the issue.) At that kind of size, is that horse just a giant arthritic joint waiting to happen? Hmmm. He is nice, if oversized and more money than I was planning on.

[StraightForward]

The mare in Atlanta I bet is a draft cross probably Percheron. I have an extreme bias against draft crosses in particular Percherons. They are built to pull not carry. This mare does have some nice training and I’m sure she could do 3 rd but these big guys are not light footed. Juliet is TB/ perch and is a very physical ride. Not my cup of tea

FWIW, I know a perch cross well who is one of the nicest rides I've sat on. Comfortable, super light on the aids, honest, forward but not at all hot, very balanced. I agree that many can be clunky. But that horse alone has made me very open to perch Xs.

I didn't know the statistic khall cited on PSSM with Percherons, but it's good to know. When I went up to look at Tesla I also saw a half Andalusian 2 yo gelding out of a Perch/Paint mare. If I hadn't had the trade offer in hand for Tesla, I totally would have bought him. If PSSM can be ruled out, they do seem to be some of the nicer draft crosses, though I trend towards preferring only 1/4 draft. The mare that lives between Annabelle and Tesla is Perch/QH cross and she is such a low maintenance, kind soul; she is emotional support for both my chestnut mares though she is the same age as A. Not sure what she could do in the dressage ring if she was in a program, but just a nice all-around type.

[blob]

I think Avanti is worth asking about! He has the potential to be a really great partner and while there might be something wrong with him, it's worth finding out what... I definitely think the weird neck thing is related to the way those are photographed. Because they all look that way in the pictures and then normal in videos. So odd.

[Ryeissa]

So, the PRE has "trust issues." He's a Mexican import that came in as a Working Equitation horse, was a stallion til he was 9, has been owned by a 70 year old lady who can no longer ride, but to his credit by the sound of it, he didn't kill her while she still did, and is basically scared to death of everything, poor guy. He's never been to a clinic or a show, or anything,

If I were looking at a project and he was third of the price, I'd give it a go. But he's not for me at this phase of my life.

Back to Avanti for a minute, though... What's with all his horse's necks? Do you think it's just the way they are photographed? They look normal on video (horses all look a bit thin to me, which could be the issue.) At that kind of size, is that horse just a giant arthritic joint waiting to happen? Hmmm. He is nice, if oversized and more money than I was planning on.

what specifically are you seeing? His neck looks like it was not developed properly, wonder if there is some underlying issue that makes it look "weedy"?

[Moutaineer]

I think it's bad photoshop.

[Ryeissa]

I think it's bad photoshop.

maybe. As a Massage therapist that sets of warning bells. It should not be lumpy in those places. Honestly looks like something wrong with the poor guy. There is no tone in most of the neck. between the first and second braid there is a weird lump too. I lightened this sale photo to show it more.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

His neck does look weird and lumpy there. But photos can be deceiving with shadows and photoshop. Maybe ask for more photos?

[blob]

Rye--if you look at the other sales horses this guy has, he has them all posed with weird looking necks. i agree that the bum at the top is very odd. But all the necks look weird and I think that's also what Mountaineer is referring to. The horses mostly look fine in videos, but man suddenly they all have weird weedy necks in the pictures. At nothing else, it's some weird posing.

https://warmblood-sales.com/seller-list/3723

[Ryeissa]

Maybe its the riding style ? Hard to say. Hmmmmm red flag.

[khall]

Avanti is a large horse and does not have a dressage background but a jumping background. So I can see why his neck is not as well developed. I like him though except for the size. Nosebleed section.

That trainer is a nice rider. I do like his professional and quiet way in his riding. Might be good to give him a call anyway since selling horses seems to be a big part of his business.

[Chisamba]

Have you asked Kenton Wright / Jessica Wisdom . I do not know them and live in the east coast so I do not know if they're is any scuttlebutt, but I have admired Jessica since I saw her riding that Welsh Cob stallion in grand prix.

[Chisamba]

Rye yes they can often get heavy but the worst imo is that they just are not maneuverable. Do not find lateral work very easy.

Blob did you know that 60% of Percherons carry the pssm1 gene? The mare here while not symptomatic is pssm1. She requires certain feeding because of her genetics. She has tied up before. I’ve worked with others one I liked but he was not a dressage horse but all around er.

Again I have a bias against drafts. Just not my thing. Juliet was advertised as American WB.

that is like saying I had one PRE in training that was unrideable and unsafe ( which I did) therefore no one should ever look at PRE. or in other words I am not much of favor of blanket disapproval. ( even thought I am somewhat guilty of it wrt OTTB)

about the grey mare, she is advertised as registered with the AWS which may unclude genetic testing. I have not investigated their rules.

peculiar is it seems both severe cases of PSSM that I have had to deal with were European warmbloods ( hanoverian) and the ten or more draft crosses In have worked worth were all PSSM clear.

but, if a draft cross is already doing third level and has reached maturity the likelihood of PSSM is lower but still worth testing in PPE.

so I do not find lateral work difficult on the PMU draft xes I have trained. what is difficult is medium and extended gaits without scurrying.

my draught mare in my profile photo tended to be heavy on the forehand until a clinician helped with piaffe and suddenly i.learned to ride her hind end.

since you do not mind topping out at 4th I wouldn't exclude a good AWS

[khall]

Well chisamba you have your biases and I have mine. There is a host of reasons of why I do not like draft crosses PSSM being just one. I fully admit my dislike of draft crosses and stand by the history I’ve had with them. AWS does not do any genetic testing for diseases.

The European drafts (Belgium’s and Percherons) are the ones with the problem with pssm1. Not the UK drafts shires and Clydesdales with the Percherons having the highest incidence of it in their breed. Which is what Juliet is.

Yes PSSM can be a problem in many other breeds but pssm1 is what is found in the Percherons not pssm2 which is what is the problem in many other breeds. Only the stock breeds have as much of a problem with pssm1 though not 60% of them. They do have the 5 panel test for stock breeds.

We all remember Xan’s issues with her lovely WB

PSSM 2 is not was well understood genetically as pssm1

[khall]

Mountaineer have you seen this mare?

https://warmblood-sales.com/horse/royal-belle

[Moutaineer]

Yes, Khall. She has some serious contact and connection issues, which is a shame. She had really good scores at training and first, and in the 5y.o tests, but somehow after that things fell apart. Owner was very honest about it, and the video she sent showed it very clearly.

So, the story so far... the weather in AZ has been so sucky that the person in front of me couldn't try him today, and is going to try again on Tuesday. Agh...

Avanti is a no go for one reason and another. Lets just say I have the advantage of having a barn mate who has just done a sweep of all the sales barns in the Pacific North West, so I have an inside line from her on where is and is not a good place to look.

I have a sort of line on a potential perfect candidate right in my back yard. We shall see. Hoping for a call back. Keep your fingers crossed...

I'm not in a rush and will hold out for Mr. or Mrs. Right I'm getting a much clearer idea of who that is going to be through this process.

[khall]

It’s been fun watching this thread to see what’s out there. Horse prices are crazy! Definitely keep us posted

I concur with the weather which is cold and rainy here

[Josette]

Mountaineer - it is excellent that you have an insider who can inform you of those sale barns. The videos are always so professionally done and easy for ammy shoppers to be impressed with a pro-rider. Many of their sale horses (upper level) seemed to be imported which makes me wonder about their purchases in Europe. Did they come from auctions there? Pure guessing on my part. The youngsters may be coming from local breeders which send them to these barns for training/sales - totally makes sense. But big sales are needed to run these businesses I would think. It seems prices went up with Covid and not discounted. I'm rambling here.....

[khall]

I want her just because she such an honest and kind mare!!

https://www.dreamhorse.com/ad/2188865.html

Watch the video

[Josette]

I saw her last week and thought she was sold. She is a jewel!!

(Last week it said sale pending status.)