DWNSA: Dressage Wimps Not So Anonymous

[mwatkins]

My name is mwatkins and I am a DW.

Over the past few years, my attendance at group lessons has been sporadic. Why? Because I pretend I have to be at work.

What the teacher has said to me does not make sense with what I have been taught previously.
It doesn't feel right, physically, emotionally or intellectually.

What I am thinking, during a lesson:
"I know you are an international expert and I am just...an amateur taking a group lesson."
"I can hear my horse's ankles flip during extended trot and his back feels hollow."
"He didn't put his head down because of the way you told me to raise my hands. He put it down when I did it a different way (behind your back)."

What I actually say during a lesson:
"Thank you."
"OK."

What I said this year, when lesson time came around.
"I wish I could, but I can't."

I am mwatkins. Do not join my club.

[Tuddy]

My name is mwatkins and I am a DW.

What I am thinking, during a lesson:
"I know you are an international expert and I am just...an amateur taking a group lesson."
"I can hear my horse's ankles flip during extended trot and his back feels hollow."
"He didn't put his head down because of the way you told me to raise my hands. He put it down when I did it a different way (behind your back)."

As for the part I put in bold.... Remember, you are paying that person. You are paying them. A good coach will always put their student and their horse first as quite frankly, without us amateurs, they wouldn't have a job. And they were in our position too at one point in their lives.

If a method that you use to lower your horse's head works and it is to the benefit of the horse, then speak up. A coach/trainer should be open to hearing other people's methods, even if they have already found a way that works for them. Every ride should be a learning experience for all parties involved, the rider, the horse, and the instructor. If the instructor is not willing to take in consideration methods/practices other than their own, that benefit the horse, then don't give them your money. I call those ones hypocrites, because ultimately, the method they use, was most likely taught to them by someone previous and they are not giving credit where credit is due.

Not all trainers are like that, please remember that!

Oh, I have been a part of your club for a while, and I am so happy to have the trainer I have now, she is very strict in her ways, but always willing to be open to discussion and explore other methods. If those methods work, we put them in the bank of knowledge for future use, if not, we toss it.

Each horse and rider learn on different levels and different ways, but at the end of it all, the positive, healthy result is the one that we are ultimately trying to acheive. If you, or your horse, are not happy in the way you are learning, change! Yes, I am well aware that it is easier said than done, and there are most likely many other factors involved, but you owe it to yourself and your horse. Life is too short to spend it being discouraged.

Good Luck! We are here for you!!!

[kande50]

I am mwatkins. Do not join my club.

I joined your club decades ago, because I felt there were just too many discrepancies between what I was reading and what I was being taught in lessons.

I was slow to ditch the lessons because I knew that there was a very good possibility that I was just misinterpreting what I was reading, but much of what I was being taught in lessons didn't feel right either, so I decided that I'd rather ride the way I wanted to ride than continue with something that seemed all wrong to me.

There are, IMO, a lot of advantages to working on one's own, with the most important being that I can decide how hard to work my horse.

Not that I don't try to start lessons again whenever I meet someone I think I might click with, but it never works out because no matter how often I explain that I'm not in any hurry and want to get what I'm working on right before trying to get more, instructors just don't seem to be wired that way. Maybe it's just too boring for them to progress so slowly, or maybe they feel that it's their responsibility as an instructor to make sure that their students progress as rapidly as possible? Don't know, but after riding the way I want to ride for so long I just can't seem to "hand over the reins".

[Moutaineer]

I'm very choosy about who I take lessons from. I have had some interesting experiences in the past, too.

Which means I am working with a trainer who is basically an agoraphobic hermit who hates the cold so is even more elusive in winter than she is in the summer. However, when we DO get it together, she is quality. She's never asked me to do something that makes me go "what? I don't think so!" she's very detailed, well-read but practical, has worked out that while I'm not going to the Olympics I do have goals, and she always has the best interests of the horse at heart. And she always gives me homework

Interestingly enough she is an educator by training--taught high school English for many years--so she gets that there are different ways to Rome for different students.

And Mette Rosecrantz, when I can. Because she has all the good qualities of the above trainer, along with the most daunting work ethic of any person I have ever met.

[piedmontfields]

What the teacher has said to me does not make sense with what I have been taught previously.
It doesn't feel right, physically, emotionally or intellectually.
... Do not join my club.

Well, I'm probably in your club! But it depends on what you were taught previously . If it was good, it makes sense to trust it and let you past education guide you (and keep you out of bad school!).

FWIW, I do find a lot of inspiration and exercise ideas from on-line videos. It's not the same as having a good trainer there with you, but it is still helpful.

[demi]

I am mwatkins. Do not join my club.

sorry. i am aleady a card carrying member.

FWIW, I do find a lot of inspiration and exercise ideas from on-line videos. It's not the same as having a good trainer there with you, but it is still helpful.

I do this a lot,too. In fact, there is a vid on DDBB ad sale page for Abby Kogler's beautiful grey mare (the link on FB says to feel free to share or repost the vid because they really want to find her a good home), anyway, I love the way the trainer rides this horse and she is doing second level which i am just now starting to do. I've watched it several times and watched it again just before I rode today. Just watching the general "appearance" is inspiring for me, plus the balance in the counter canter is so well displayed that I could imagine going through the same motions with my own horse...

[demi]

oh yeah, one other thing I got from that particular video was a good mental "picture" of tempo. She and her trainer looked like a metronome to me.

[scruffy the cat]

I had that happen once. Ultimately I fled in the night and vowed never to repeat the experience. It either sits right with my gut, or I disappear. It took YEARS to get over what that woman did to me. It was partially my fault for letting it happen but it was also her fault for, you know, existing. I am older and wiser now, but still bitter about that experience.

[bailey]

I've been in that club too, and stayed way. too. long. I finally got the courage to quit (fire) that trainer and went with someone I love. She's great for me and my horse-I love working with her and learn something every time.
Another thing that's helped me (besides the good suggestions here) is that I have video of myself riding....how painful but very instructive and insightful. I actually got the video to meet one of my goals here of posting a video but I don't think so....not till I improve a bit more!

It's already been said, but we're here for you and wish you the best.

[Abby Kogler]

[quote="demi
I do this a lot,too. In fact, there is a vid on DDBB ad sale page for Abby Kogler's beautiful grey mare (the link on FB says to feel free to share or repost the vid because they really want to find her a good home), anyway, I love the way the trainer rides this horse and she is doing second level which i am just now starting to do. I've watched it several times and watched it again just before I rode today. Just watching the general "appearance" is inspiring for me, plus the balance in the counter canter is so well displayed that I could imagine going through the same motions with my own horse...[/quote]


Oh thank you!! You made my day.

Jeremy is the best. Truly. There are so many options in this area and so very many good trainers here; careful, sane, excellent trainers. But Jeremy is my favorite for lots of reasons. I always loved the way he rode; he has a beautiful, classic seat, he is just a beautiful rider. He always seeks that open throat latch. He is humble, and curious. And he loves my mare >;-> but most important she loves him too. She trusts him because he did not push her and she is so happy in her work there which is my bottom line. Win! Win!

[AmityBee]

No DW here, but can I please join, because yesterday I realized I'm a CWNSA. Chiro Wimp. The chiro I use is reall, really, really good at what she does, she's more like a chiro, osteopath, physical therapist all rolled into one. But man, has she drunken the kool aid! She's a dogmatic follower of a trainer who has a very specific approach to dressage, not a bad one, basically classical but way off the beaten tracks, extremely reduced, think walk, long rein, only straight lines and circles until perfection in straighness and ballanced is reached, than move to the text gait, reach perfection at the trot, only then add canter till perfect. Once the goal of perfect ballance, straighness and use of body is reached in all three gaits you are ready to start with dressage exercises like lateral work, contact, collection, the works. The master can actually do all that, but I yet have to see a student doing more than walk and trot work.

So, since I'm not folowing the school of her guru she systematically tears me down everytime she's here, working on my horse. I start out resonably happy with my horse and my choices and two hours later she has me convinced that I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing, that every positive development I'm seeing and feeling is a lie and that I'm physically harming my horse. And I belive her! Every. Single. Time. Yesterday, I tried to confront her about it, which almost left me in tears. She's just that good.

Usually, I need 24 to 48 hours to get my confidence back. I tried different chiros, but she's just that little bit better than anyone else, which means I will go there again, probably. That's definitely whimpy. *sigh*

[demi]

...So, since I'm not folowing the school of her guru she systematically tears me down everytime she's here, working on my horse. I start out resonably happy with my horse and my choices and two hours later she has me convinced that I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing, that every positive development I'm seeing and feeling is a lie and that I'm physically harming my horse. And I belive her! Every. Single. Time. Yesterday, I tried to confront her about it, which almost left me in tears. She's just that good.

Usually, I need 24 to 48 hours to get my confidence back. I tried different chiros, but she's just that little bit better than anyone else, which means I will go there again, probably. That's definitely whimpy. *sigh*

Sorry to hear this. I am just an amateur but from the recent vid you posted of your pony, I can't believe that you are hurting him. In fact, it looks like you've got a good thing going. I think your pony is lucky to have you.

[cb06]

Been there, done that, bought that book.
After taking a few opportunities in the last year to ride with a few different trainers (in an area of the country with a LOT of very good dressage trainers/instructors), I found 3 that were all very good, aka. on a different level.... They are all actively riding, training and showing horses from qualifying young horses for National Championships (Lamplight) to training horses from scratch to Grand Prix (not just buying a mostly trained horse and riding it at the higher levels). Their teaching styles are slightly different (of course), but they are all 'rowing' in the same direction...they all made sense, they were all very detailed and had a good eye for both the horse and rider (me), they all made good contribution to furthering my education and progress. I still love my original trainer, but the variety has brought a good perspective...that he really is very good.

...and then there was that 'other' BNT....who, if you ask on TOB for a dressage instructor in my area, her name always comes up, always....
She does not actively show or ride much more than her own older schoolmasters (not that that is a disqualifier)...
... 'rowing' in a totally different direction....not all 'wrong', just really, really different and not at all very applicable to the REAL world of horses and progressing in dressage....had three lessons were she tried to fit my horse into her 'system'...and I absolutely tried. When an instructor asks me to do something (even if I'm unsure), I zip-it and just do it...I'm all in. ...and AmityB, I got the 'your hurting your horse' talk too...total BS...smoke and mirrors...Sadly, this BNT has a whole herd of middle-aged AA ladies who hang on her every word (and never progress).

[musical comedy]

First off, I'm not in the club. Maybe I was years ago, but I've since learned how to say "No" (not just about horses/training). I won't do anything that feels wrong to me. Probably the reason I haven't advanced more.

Now this is sort of sad. I've only had two dressage trainers in 14 years. Two clinics with the same clinicians. That's it.

I'm not in favor of trainer hoping or taking clinics with a lot of different clinicians. That said, if you only ride with one or two trainers, you really don't have any basis of comparison and don't know if what they are teaching you is the right thing. Of course, the more you know and the more skilled your are in your riding and the training of the horse, the more you will be able to see if the trainer is heading you down the wrong path. For newbies to the sport, they are in more of a difficult situation.

It should always be about progressing: both the horse and rider. When the lessons become the same old thing each time and you're having the same old problems, then it's time to look elsewhere for help. The thing here is that the dressage world is small, and it is hard to leave a trainer without them feeling insulted. And then what if the next trainer is even worse. Pretty soon you start to get a rep of being a trainer hopper.

CB06, I don't know about you, but I would never select a trainer based on asking people (I don't know) on the web.

[cb06]

CB06, I don't know about you, but I would never select a trainer based on asking people (I don't know) on the web.

Yep, me neither. I hitched a ride with a barn friend who really likes 'BNT', and had access to lower cost lessons with BNT (normally they are not cheap)...so it seemed like a good opportunity to see/try something different, there was an indoor, it was cheap, I had a free ride, etc...(I'm on budget and no transport)....lesson learned...(you mean the internet is not accurate?! )

[AmityBee]

Thank you, demi

The fact that I put myself at the mercy of that woman again and again, just to get my horse the treatment that is just that little bit better than others is saying something.

[kande50]

Thank you, demi

The fact that I put myself at the mercy of that woman again and again, just to get my horse the treatment that is just that little bit better than others is saying something.

Too bad you couldn't trade time with someone and let them hold your horse for her.

Something else I often find works well is to get a friend to help you, and every time the crazy massage lady starts in just excuse yourself and turn and start talking to your friend. A few repetitions and she may catch on, although it often takes longer with the really crazy ones because the lectures are so self-reinforcing for them.

[oldhag]

I learned that trainers talk rubbish when I was 17. Why didn't I trust my own judgement, instead of spending loads of my hard earned cash on them in later years?

[kande50]

I learned that trainers talk rubbish when I was 17. Why didn't I trust my own judgement, instead of spending loads of my hard earned cash on them in later years?

So now I'm curious about why you went back and drank more koolaid when you already knew?

One of my friends took lots of lessons for years, and then when she started to learn about French Classical she wanted to know where she needed to go to get her money back.

[oldhag]

I learned that trainers talk rubbish when I was 17. Why didn't I trust my own judgement, instead of spending loads of my hard earned cash on them in later years?

So now I'm curious about why you went back and drank more koolaid when you already knew?

One of my friends took lots of lessons for years, and then when she started to learn about French Classical she wanted to know where she needed to go to get her money back.

Because I wasn't 17 anymore I realized I didn't know everything. Now I'm in my seventies I know that nobody knows everything!

[kande50]

Because I wasn't 17 anymore I realized I didn't know everything. Now I'm in my seventies I know that nobody knows everything!

Why weren't you happy with the instruction you had later in life?

I don't think I've ever thought that I knew more than my instructors, but when there's a huge discrepancy between what an instructor wants to do and what I think we probably should do, then I get twitchy.

Funny part is that when I was younger (and should have thought I knew everything) I knew that I didn't know anything so went into lessons wanting to learn. And I did learn a lot, but I was riding a horse I'd raised who I knew was the sweetest horse on the planet, so was very uncomfortable with the confrontational relationship the barn had with their horses. Not that the instructor didn't feel a certain amount of fondness for her horses, but it was in the context of "they have to do it", which made for harsh riding.

I really think some people see horses as much tougher than I think they are, and never give it a thought that their riding could be abusive?

[oldhag]

Because I wasn't 17 anymore I realized I didn't know everything. Now I'm in my seventies I know that nobody knows everything!

Why weren't you happy with the instruction you had later in life?

Because they overcharged for directing traffic, constant praise, constant abuse, not saying owt, riding my horses no better than me - some of them worse.

I've taught myself more by concentrating on my horse when riding alone and by watching good riders when not riding.

[kande50]

I've taught myself more by concentrating on my horse when riding alone and by watching good riders when not riding.

That's what I like to do, too. I also do the video thing, which I can do now that I'm retired and have the time. So an hour to ride, and then another hour or two to analyze the video, and I never get that twitchy feeling when I'm watching the videos because I'm not happy with what an instructor wanted me to do--because the only instructor out there is my horse.

I watch dvd's too, which is how I get to watch what I think are good riders on beautiful horses (in spotless environments). I can get a lot of mileage out of a few dvd's, because the more I learn the more I can pick up from watching them again.