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The shoulders are a result of what’s happening in the hind legs and these exercises address strengthening and suppling the hind legs so the horse does not have to go to a shoulder nor does the rider have to manage the crookedness instead the horse has the strength and understanding how to be in self carriage. This was particularly what Cedar wanted to get across

One of the big ones we did for all of mine was to start in counter SI along the long side asking for the inside hind to reach as well as encouraging the outside fore to reach. All of mine were dealing with wanting to stay more on the right shoulder (Joplin has just switched her shoulder alliance:) so we would start in counter SI bending right on the left rein down the long side. Rip and Gaila we would push the trot Joplin we kept it small with an indicating opening left rein to shift her shoulders to the left. Had to open the right as well so she would yield to that asking for bend and flexion to the right which encourages the right hind to step further. She’s still very green to this so did just a little then would straighten. With Rip and Gaila we would change flexion and bend and move from counter SI to HI L trying to use as little rein as possible so not to block them. If they started to struggle fo back to counter SI. I could really feel the release of the hips and how it made the HI easier for the horse.

With Gaila in SI right Joplin as well but to a green horse degree thinking of pushing the trot or allowing the left shoulder to reach more. Joplin we did this with an opening left rein a bit Gaila just pushed the trot

With Joplin we took this from counter SI along the long side to a diagonal line and continue the SI on the diagonal challenging both of us to be precise. Though we did not do this during the clinic with a more advanced horse needing to work on reach in the HP you can start this exercise in the SI across and change to HP to help with the engagement of the right hind and reach of the left fore

Then with another rider in the canter who wanted to really be on the right shoulder in the canter but did not want to reach more forewarn with the right fore in the right lead she had her counter bend in the right lead but indicating with the right rein for the horse to reach more forward leading that leg with the right rein then back to true bend. It really worked to get the horse to reach more up and out with the right fore. She also had the rider on the left lead to counter bend on the long side and push the HQs in yielding for just a few strides the straighten. He really stood more up and was in much better self carriage going left.

None of these movements are done in order to practice for show movements but to address how the horse is moving and their balance and straightness. Cedar in particular wants the horse to carry themselves so the rider is not having to manage their straightness. I liked that concept.

I do want to say that the training that I follow comes from Nuno Olivera. That’s who Mark worked with and who JP Giacomini worked with. Cedar is JP’s head trainer. If you’ve watched any of NO work he lives in lateral exercises on bending lines to straight lines moving from one movement to another

https://youtu.be/4E4gqOASkZg

This works also helps to address the posture of the horse encouraging a more upright carriage. Especially in the moving into the bend exercises.

SI-HI-SI transitions
LY- HP-LY
Backing on a circle

I study mary wanless, so we use the rider biomechanics to address horse crookedness. There quite a variety of solutions depending on how the horse and rider are relating, and the horse tendencies. I have done several things over the last 8 yrs as things evolve and change.

Khall when talking about counter SI, are you referring to 'inside' as inside of bend or inside of arena?

Blob inside refers to the bend.

khall wrote:Blob inside refers to the bend.

agree. always related to the horse.

Ryeissa wrote:

khall wrote:Blob inside refers to the bend.

agree. always related to the horse.

I agree, as well but not everyone uses it this way. And so to understand the exercise I wanted to be sure. I have before made the mistake in a clinic of assuming inside meant bend and then getting totally confused when the exercise didn't make sense. ha. So, now I ask.

What exactly is counter shoulder-in? Is it different than renvers?

Demi yes counter SI is what I learned as head to the wall. So the horse’s head is towards the rail HQs in and bent to the rail. So if while going left the horse’s HQs are left while bent right.

Anja Beran turns just before the rail then moves the shoulders over to continue with the idea SI mobilizes the shoulders

Counter SI helps to free up the outside shoulder (in relation to the bend) while encouraging the inside hind to step further under center of mass. This would be the right hind when going left around the arena. Moving away from the bend in SI and counter SI is easier for the horse than moving into the bend as they do in HI and renvere. That is why we move from counter SI to HI easier to harder.

Ideally, yes, this is something we'd just be able to do on a 20m circle. However, I've found exercises like trot 20m/turn on the haunches in the walk/trot off and the like (with lots of changes of direction) help him connect the dots. "Oooh that's what you meant when you gave a half-halt on a straight line!" is the feeling he gives me.

I've been using (overly so, in Queso's opinion) square turns in walk and canter to square my horse up over his 4 corners. He can be stiff on the left and a bit vacant on the right rein, so any exercise that slows the left shoulder from taking over and makes the right hind step up to the job is key to getting him nice and straight.

I'm lucky to have access to an oversized arena, where the following exercise doesn't require a whole lot of modification to work:
- Trot shoulder-in 10+m off the rail
- 4x along long side: 10m circle towards outside of arena
- Reestablish shoulder-in, rinse, repeat.

Benefits: horse starts to take ownership of own balance (develops self-carriage) as he can't always rely on the same shape of his body for the whole exercise. We could go in any direction at any time!
Must-dos: Maintain steady tempo and ground-cover.
Modulations: can swap up by renvers/circle to the inside of the arena if you want to mix things up.

Plie exercises (LY within a SI position) can be helpful to straighten out a crooked horse, but only if you're very strict about maintaining the SI position as you go sideways. Can be done in W/T/C.

I also really like playing with renvers or counter-shoulder-in within the canter or counter canter. Benefits of the canter: you've got the ability to isolate a hind leg in a way you don't have in the trot. Downsides: you might get flying changes everywhere; additionally, it's quite hard work for the horse so use sparingly.

Maia's not a fan of always engaging her left shoulder on a circle. If I tighten my left thigh, most of the time she'll stand up, but some days we need more intervention:

Counter-bend 2-3 strides
1-2 strides straight
Return to original circle
Repeat as necessary

It's mostly a strength problem at the canter these days, so we're developing the counter-canter, and leg-yield in the canter. And I've been schooling out in the field, which means she needs to carry herself level over uneven, heavily sloped ground. All seems to be helping.

I feel like Ponichiwa literally described a recent ride I had. Kind of freaky, but also cool to see the common exercises!

In a busy arena, I am also a fan of doing a walk warm up on a 15-20 m circle of shoulder in to counter shoulder in to travers to renvers. Doing it on a circle is hard, but extremely effective to limber up my short bodied, tight mare. FYI, I start with free walking before doing this series.

piedmontfields wrote:I am also a fan of doing a walk warm up on a 15-20 m circle of shoulder in to counter shoulder in to travers to renvers. Doing it on a circle is hard, but extremely effective to limber up my short bodied, tight mare. FYI, I start with free walking before doing this series.

We do a low-key version of that — mostly very, very tight, over-bent small circles over whatever happens to be sprawled all over the arena (one of my fellow boarders does a lot of pole work), with a bit of leg yield, and half pass thrown in. If she's really sticky, I add travers and shoulder in. Maia has to pick up her feet AND bend. Most days that's all we need to loosen up the sticky left shoulder and get my left shoulder and left hip doing their job.

Maia always lets out a mighty sigh when I finally let her march forward

Thank you for starting this thread khall. I added a few to our work out routine that I had forgotten and already we're becoming straighter and getting much better transitions overall.

That’s great exvet. I thought of you and Junior wondering if any of these exercises were ones you were using.

I’ve had a big ah ha with Joplin and lateral work. Found she is so light to the aids that I can just use leg and seat with very little rein needed. I’ve been riding those WBs for so long I’m having to scale my aids back. Rip and Gaila are better than they were as green horses to the aids but Joplin is just amazing to ride in her lightness and maneuverability.