Don Martillo diagnosed with Shivers

[scruffy the cat]

http://www.eurodressage.com/2019/03/26/ ... Pw--vOn55k

This is a huge deal imho, because they are admitting it publicly and stopping him from adding it to the gene pool any more than he already has. It's pretty late in his story but I hope it will help others down the line.

[Chisamba]

Looks like someone tried to hide it and the other one outed them

[Wicky]

Very sad. Many years ago I had a horse with shivers, and his full sister had them too. No other horses out of the mare had it, and the stallion was not known to have it or pass it on (stallion was a VERY well known breeding stallion with a long showing history). He was managed as well as possible with diet, and I gave him away to a home that could give him 24/7 turnout. He was a lovely, kind horse, despite the shivers and multiple conformational challenges.

[Chisamba]

I see the other party claims the horse has something, it's not shivers, but did not disclose what it is, and says the fight is about money owed.

[Xanthoria]

Wow. Certainly sounds like shivers to me.

As some of you know, my gelding has shivers and PSSM type 2. He's by Negro out of a Flemmingh mare whose damsire was Nimmerdor. It's been said to me by amateur pedigree analysts who spot trends that the stallion Cottage Son (who appears twice on the dam side) is suspected of causing issues.

Shivers tends to affect male horses, and especially tall ones. And in the past, it was bred away from, leading to the idea that it's genetic.

Like PSSM it doesn't tend to appear until later in a horse's life (between 2 and 10) so the buyer is left "holding the baby" while the breeders carry on in blissful ignorance, for the most part. Hence, it doesn't get as much attention, I believe, as things like WFFS and so on, that kills foals.

"With the increasing popularity of draft and Warmblood horses in North America, the age-old problem of shivers is making a resurgence."

[scruffy the cat]

I was really hopeful that this was going to start a meaningful discussion on the FB Breeder's Forum but as in all cases before, the discussion got shut down with members right and left proclaiming that "there's no known genetic marker" and "there's no definitive proof" and "this situation didn't exist- it was just a smear campaign because of a conflict between the humans involved".

[Xanthoria]

Well that’s nuts. If the foremost researcher in the US thinks there might be a link but simply lacks the funding to prove it from what I understand, a breeder isn’t just unwise to breed a shivers horse, they should be ashamed.

Worth noting to yourself the names of the breeders who disagree with that IMO. No doubt they’re performing other feats of magical thinking with their stock too...

[scruffy the cat]

Dr. Valberg weighs in. Still on the vague side:
http://www.eurodressage.com/2019/03/28/ ... hereditary

For awhile I kept a list of names of stallions that have any sort of "black mark" against them, be it offspring with DSLD or Shivers or PSSM or any of the other jolly conditions horses can get. People get very squirrelly about naming names but occasionally someone let something drop and onto my list it went. I deleted it when I bought the last horse. His sire wasn't on my list but jokes on me since he turned out to have a previously broken pelvis. Not the fault of his pedigree!

[Xanthoria]

Oh gads scruffy - seriously? Sorry to hear that

Yeah Valberg clearly has her suspicions. Told me she'd no funding (a year ago?) but perhaps one day she can get to the root of it...

[scruffy the cat]

Yeah, no jokes for me!

Valberg needs a patron since nobody who stands any stallions wants to hear what she finds out. Also

Signed,
Cynical and Bitter in New England

[Xanthoria]

There has to be a better way to make sure breeders test and only breed sound stock! Even AQHA finally cottoned on with the HYPP/PSSM etc etc testing...

FFS...

[kande50]

I deleted it when I bought the last horse. His sire wasn't on my list but jokes on me since he turned out to have a previously broken pelvis. Not the fault of his pedigree!

No PPE, or it just didn't show up?

[scruffy the cat]

I deleted it when I bought the last horse. His sire wasn't on my list but jokes on me since he turned out to have a previously broken pelvis. Not the fault of his pedigree!

No PPE, or it just didn't show up?

Pre-PPE, PPE, and videos sent to my vet. Suspect collusion between seller and Pre-PPE vet, even though she's an FEI vet whom I've used before for another horse. I asked point blank if this horse had any back or SI issues and she said no. Perhaps even collusion with PPE vet, though I think he was just out to lunch- it didn't seem like the most thorough PPE ever. Then again, he was squirrelly when I pressed him on back radiographs so who knows.

Horse hasn't been right since he stepped off the trailer to me. Ultrasound showed the old break.

[Bip]

I just want to add, because Scruffy is being diplomatic, that during her purchase process, the seller made a HUGE SHOW of making the horse’s vet records available. Then when she reached out to them because she was having what she thought were saddle fitting issues, they put her in touch with their (family member) saddle fitter but still didn’t mention the pelvis issue even though the symptoms should have rung a bell. Flash forward however many months to when Scruffy’s vet found the break and damaged supporting ligaments, their response was “we know, but he was fine!”

If he was so fine, and the broken pelvis and damaged ligaments weren’t causing any problem, why was he unable to meet their competitive goals and was therefore for sale? And why was it never mentioned, despite direct questions about his back and SI?

[scruffy the cat]

Thanks, Bip. It's hard to know how to express any of this.

[kande50]

Nothing's changed when it comes to selling horses, has it? I'd think that lying in answer to direct questions for the purpose of concealing known damage would be illegal?

[Bip]

Nothing's changed when it comes to selling horses, has it? I'd think that lying in answer to direct questions for the purpose of concealing known damage would be illegal?

Oh, I think “our vet will give your vet all his records!” while concealing something like this is Next Level dishonest. It is stealing plain and simple, even though the people who do it can sleep at night because “haha, that’s just selling horses!”

And there’s no record of Scruffy having asked the direct question, it’s he said she said. And even if there was a record, it might not be illegal. I know the bill of sale for the horse I bought most recently literally states no warranty even for things in writing. So nothing stated in the sale ad has to be true! Nothing they told me has to be true. And I was sent the bill of sale to sign WHILE the horse was in transit to me, so I figured I had to sign it (in retrospect, I was in the position of power and probably could have asked for it to be amended). I don’t know if her bill of sale has that language, but I suspect even if it does not, the laws in the state where the transaction took place likely favor the seller.

Can you tell I have feelings about all of this?

[kande50]

Can you tell I have feelings about all of this?

It pisses me off, too. If I was going to buy a horse I didn't already know enough about I'd want to ask all my questions on email so I'd have a written record of what was said. If someone didn't want to write anything down then I wouldn't be interested in buying from them.

But then, I'm not looking for the kinds of horses that are in high demand so there are plenty to choose from.

[mld02004]

Yikes scruffy, how awful. So sorry to read this!

[khall]

Scruffy I had no idea you were having problems with your new horse. Good grief how can those people live with themselves. I am so sorry and BIP I don't blame you for being hot under the collar about it.

Look at the C6 C7 malformation issue that is now being studied. The anatomist received death threats if she published the TB lines

https://thehorsesback.com/c6-c7-malformation/

[scruffy the cat]

Death threats??? The whole industry is kind of sickening to me right now. I hope someday, in some way, they are judged and found wanting.

[Chancellor]

OMG! Scruffy! I am so sorry. That just sucks sooooo much.

[Ponichiwa]

Scruffy, that's the most depressing/infuriating sales story I've heard. "I'm so sorry" barely covers it.

[WheresMyWhite]

Death threats??? The whole industry is kind of sickening to me right now. I hope someday, in some way, they are judged and found wanting.

Frankly, why?

IMO TBs (aka Jockey Club) spend far more time and effort attempting to make the sport as safe as possible than many other disciplines. Equine Injury Database (EID) comes to mind for one. Looking at possible changes in drug/medication guidelines and policies. Mandatory necropsies in most (all?) states for racing fatalities (not sure what states mandate necropsies on training fatalities.)

Do I like to see the breakdowns? No, I don't.

One challenge is that each state (for the most part) makes their own laws with regards to race day meds, testing, necropsies. There is not really one single national governing body for this.

At least I feel TBs are trying harder than many other disciplines. They're just making the news more

[scruffy the cat]

Death threats??? The whole industry is kind of sickening to me right now. I hope someday, in some way, they are judged and found wanting.

Frankly, why?

IMO TBs (aka Jockey Club) spend far more time and effort attempting to make the sport as safe as possible than many other disciplines. Equine Injury Database (EID) comes to mind for one. Looking at possible changes in drug/medication guidelines and policies. Mandatory necropsies in most (all?) states for racing fatalities (not sure what states mandate necropsies on training fatalities.)

Do I like to see the breakdowns? No, I don't.

One challenge is that each state (for the most part) makes their own laws with regards to race day meds, testing, necropsies. There is not really one single national governing body for this.

At least I feel TBs are trying harder than many other disciplines. They're just making the news more

Huh? I don't get your response. My anger at the industry is leveled at those who are working hard to sweep things under the rug (at best) or lying outright (at worst). The individuals making death threats, or the owners who hide pre-existing conditions.

[Koolkat]

IMO TBs (aka Jockey Club) spend far more time and effort attempting to make the sport as safe as possible than many other disciplines. Equine Injury Database (EID) comes to mind for one. Looking at possible changes in drug/medication guidelines and policies. Mandatory necropsies in most (all?) states for racing fatalities (not sure what states mandate necropsies on training fatalities.)

Do I like to see the breakdowns? No, I don't.

One challenge is that each state (for the most part) makes their own laws with regards to race day meds, testing, necropsies. There is not really one single national governing body for this.

At least I feel TBs are trying harder than many other disciplines. They're just making the news more

I don't think Scruffy was referring to THAT industry. And the Jockey Club may spend far more time, effort than other disciplines, but that's a low bar. Of course, now that their livelihood is being threatened, there's a mad scramble. But it's not about the horses, or they wouldn't have gotten to this state of affairs. And I'm a fan. . . . but not an unconflicted one.

[scruffy the cat]

Koolkat, you are correct.

[Beorn]

scruffy... I have words, except I think they should not be printed

[Hayburner]

Scruffy, so sorry to hear this about your new horse! Something this significant whether the horse was fine at the moment should have rightfully been disclosed or at least made mention to.

Where are you now with your ability to ride him?

[chantal]

Oh scruffy... I have no words.

[M&M]

Scruffy, that is absolutely awful, and I'm so very sorry you've had to deal with this.

[Quelah]

The vet that discovered and published the source of HYPP also received death threats prior to publishing. She was faculty at UC Davis, was a rough time for her, brave lady.

[Snork]

First, scruffy I’m so very very sorry. I’m sick for, and with you. There is so much repugnant stuff in this industry, both due to willful ignorance and complete lack of moral standards, that being disappointed is almost a given.

Some of the best and worst people hang out around horses, and a whole lot of opportunistic small time crooks. Sometimes it’s hard to tell who is who.

Years ago I knew a warmblood gelding who had been a stallion prospect, flunked his test in Germany and was sold to the US, cheaply as “a deal” and “a favor.” He was a gorgeous, royally bred, nasty tempered horse who, depending on the day, could be anywhere from mildly unpleasant to a downright dangerous ride. Nevertheless, the young pro persisted because when he wasn’t trying to kill you, he was stunning.

By complete chance I found out that years before he had been one of the first warmblood horses in the US diagnosed with a hereditary metabolic disorder. He was promptly sold after the diagnosis, sold again and then again and the PSSM somehow got “lost.”

When I emailed the article to his trainer, they blew me off and soon after I lost contact. Clearly, this horse was badly tempered but he was also hurting. Pride precluded help.

I still see that stallion’s get for sale sometimes and most of the time the ads say, or none too subtly imply, that a very experienced rider is strongly preferred. My guess is that the stallion was no sunshine in temperament, and, whether it came from the mare or the stallion, after a while the breeders probably knew about the PSSM too. I don’t ever see that mentioned anywhere out loud though. You couldn’t pay me to take anyone related to that sire in the first two generations, if ever, but it’s just one I personally knew. How many other sick nut jobs are out there, being bred and replicated because they are gorgeous?

NeVar had a similar experience with her Dutch stallion prospect import. If I remember correctly, her horses sire later became well known, although never admitted to outright, to throw unrideable horses. Whether a health issue or temperamental is another question, but, I think, I remember neVar saying not one of his get that she knew of was successfully consistently under saddle for extended periods of time. Gorgeous though. Don’t tell me stallion owners didn’t know long before the general public.

And it’s not just Warmbloods. Every breed has their own dirty “little” secrets and it’s the horses and the good people often left holding the bag.

I love the smell of horses. I love the barn at night. I love so much about all of this, but the more I learn about the horse world, the less I want to be part of it. I don’t even know if I want to ride anymore.

[greenhorse]

I wouldn’t be so quick to say that stallion had a bad temperament. I have no idea as to the stallion’s identity, but I am, very unfortunately, way too familiar with PSSM. When not managed, horses can be in excruciating pain. They only have so many ways of telling us. Have you ever had a cramp in your leg wake you up at night? Imagine your whole body feeling that way 24-7. It’s a horrible disease.