Double jointed snaffles- opinions? thoughts?

[Fzybtfrm]

I have a 6 yr old KWPN/ ADDH who has a mouth like iron. I ride him in a thinish eggbutt snaffle with a drop noseband and alternate with a twisted wire snaffle with a regular noseband, as he will take advantage in the smooth snaffle and ignore my aids. I have used a double jointed snaffle, one with a center piece, round or flat, on one of my other horses and he didn't like it, but am wondering if it might be helpful to this Resistant- to- submission- in the- poll- guy. What IS the advantage to a double jointed- snaffle anyway? Kinder, gentler, horse chews the bit more? This guy does NOT mouth or chew the bit at all, ever, even with his head on the ground relaxed. I am well-aware that twisted wire snaffles are not allowed in dressage, but it was a choice of being in control or not being in control of the horse- I may never show him. Any input on double jointed snaffles appreciated, if it might help this guy chew the bit or relax in his poll more consistently. And please don't suggest one of those $100to $150 Neue something bits, unless you can guarantee it will work, I don't have that kind of money to toss around. I am not a complete amateur- I showed my retired gelding to Prix St. George training him myself with lessons. TIA!

[Tanga]

Join No Bit-Shit on Facebook and you will get a lot of informed answers abut this. Single joints act like a nutcracker and hit the bars of the mouth and jam up into the roof of the mouth and are not kind. A twisted wire works on pain, which is not the answer. Closing the mouth with a noseband is not answering the problem. Cavalon Tack has a great number of very, very well priced bits the group loves.

You have to go back and training and work with why his mouth and resistance are the way they are. My younger mare (PSG/I-1) tends to stiff and tight. The last thing I need to do is be harsher and crank her in. I've been experimenting with massage, especially the brachecephalus from the poll to the chest and she loves it--just getting into those muscles and under them behind the ears seems to be like relieving a headache for her. I also do a lot of that stretching side to side, all which teaches her and her body where her head can be. And of course I work al along her back and check where the tension is and work on that as much as I can. That has made a huge difference. I also saw something where someone helps relax the hyoid, which gets all of that area in the head and neck and chest. She just puts her hand in the mouth (both sides one at a time) and holds onto the jaw gently and goes with the horse's free head until they stop opening their mouth and moving their head--basically they end up stretching all of those tissues out. I did it once and it really seemed to help--she completely started salivating, which she doesn't do a lot of. If you search, you'll find a lot of really good information that sounds like what you are talking about.

So I think you answer is a simple double jointed bit and loose noseband and trying something completely new. I think resistance is from pain and lack of strength, and try something that forces that instead of relaxing everything and relieving pain is not the way to go.

And, just FYI, the mother of my two was a mess when I got her--weak, out of shape, super talented, and all over the place with her head and opening her mouth. I tried tightening the noseband. That just made it worse. It made her feel trapped. As soon as I loosened it up and made it just decorative, she was able to relax some and not feel trapped, but it took a long while for her to get strong enough to be able to build the muscle to carry herself without leaning. Now her open mouth is a good test for her leasors--if she's got it open, she's not balanced and carrying and they need to adjust and balance her. They've done it right when she's got it closed.

[Flight]

I agree with Tanga, and I do find if my horse is getting resistant it's because I'm not releasing and I have too much of a hold. They protect themselves by bracing/stiffening etc.
The other thing is maybe try a double? A curb bit you can use to just roll over the tongue and help with releasing the tongue and hyoid etc. As long as you dont hold the curb on the whole time, which will just compress them, the curb bit can help with release.

[StraightForward]

I might be on the minority, but both my horses dislike double jointed snaffles. Given that your horse seems dead in the mouth, I wonder about trying different materials. Maybe even wrapping the bit with a little fruit leather to get him salivating and working his tongue. It was helpful for Annabelle to go in a double, not because I was using the curb, but because the extra bit encouraged her to soften her jaw.

[heddylamar]

I second the materials. You've got a horse who's tensing it's jaw and not softening. Escalating isn't working, so why not de-escalate? If it were my horse, I'd try a rubber bit and remove the noseband.

How do you warm up? My current mare doesn't have a tense jaw, but she can be stiff in her neck, which is reflected throughout her body. So I warm up with tight, twisty, windy serpentines and figure-8s at the walk on a long-ish rein. That loosens her neck, and gets her chewing the bit.

[Fzybtfrm]

thanks to all for your input- I will check out the facebook group to get more input!

[Kyras_Mom]

Could you work with a bit fitter? I wish they were around when I started my horse. She has something weird in her mouth conformation and she flat doesn’t like most snaffles. There are so many options out there. I never thought of bits much until I had this horse. Man did my credit card get wrung out trying. It can be a training issue also. I wish you good luck in finding the key. I do agree with the others…harsher is not better. You need to find what is comfortable to him. With my horse the heaviness and bracing was her trying to stabilize the bit. My horse is a relatively petite Andalusian cross. I would have never thought she could be that heavy.

It is tough peeling the onion to find a good answer. Good Luck.

Susan

[Chisamba]

It's an old Irish saying but horses with a hard mouth are born with a hard mouth.

Yes I also had a visceral negative reaction to that statement, bur it's true. Having g since ridden so many different hosts for so many different reasons many many horses, maybe most horses will chew spit curl or get behind the contact to avoid pressure or contact, but some just lean into it. I have found standardbred x most inclined. It takes every bit of training, expertise and focus to change this and its ongoing. Ten years later you are still working on it. And sadly it's not really the bit , you can go through a hundred bits and they will eventually accommodate the feeling of the bit and lean.

Now those of you who want to blame the training or the rider will not change your mind, but if 5 horses go through exactly the same training and four are fine and the fifth has five through twenty bits and ten ears of sling and balancing and still pulls and is heavy, you might consider that some hosts are born that way

[Tanga]

Chisamba. I agree with you. Quinn can be very hard mouthed, and is the exact same breeding and environment as Quilla. That's why I shared what I have done and do with her. I had to put her in a double at 3rd level when she was bolty and really hurt me one day, just to have control. And it took a long time, but she is perfectly safe in the snaffle now, but it's always a work in progress in how I can get it better. It is, but it's always 2 steps forward, 3 back, 1 forward, 5 back, 10 forward . . .

[Fzybtfrm]

Thank Y'all for your input. I borrowed a narrow eggbutt with a round bean in the middle, the arms had a narrow coating of rubber and a french link with a flat middle piece. He hated the french link and made no bones about it, and goes like a dream in the rubber coated one with the round bean in the middle. Yeah, progress! Finally getting some steadiness and consistency in the connection. And I never thought I would agree with Chisamba until this horse came along. I started him in a thickish copper d-ring snaffle and he pretty much might as well as had a halter on. Working mostly on my own, but have re-started biweekly lessons, and I am so appreciative of this resource !

[blob]

one thing I will also add is that both the eggbutt and the drop noseband are designed to create steadiness. This is great for horses that are fussy in the mouth or green. But it sounds like your guy might need to be looser, rather than steadier, so you might want to go for a loose ring rather than an eggbutt or d-ring and try a cavesson (with or without flash) rather than a drop to encourage him to have more movement in the mouth.

[exvet]

I have in my bit collection a few KK of various sizes, an egg butt snaffle, a D ring snaffle, a mullen mouth, a plethora of mylar bits (those legal to show in dressage) and then a couple of those horribly expensive bits, not to mention the doubles I have - I've used, sold and then bought again some of the same bits. Of my guys, one, my mustang, most definitely prefers a single jointed snaffle by mylar. He does not have a low palate at all and this bit doesn't have the nut cracker effect usually associated with single jointed bits because of how it sits in the mouth. My point is that there are some single jointed bits that may not be as harsh as others. With Junior I've been back to one of my ancient KK snaffles. He seems to prefer it. He still will open and gap his mouth and put his tongue over his bit. He, like both his dam and his sire, sucks his tongue when faced with anything difficult or stressful. I threw away the flash (never tightened it down) and learned that he requires specific warm up to try to lessen the tension between his ears (and thus throughout his body) and if he gaps his mouth it's most definitely because I've lost the hind legs. He most definitely tells on me if I don't have him on my aids. My other, Brandon, is very very fussy with his mouth whenever tense or if he's not balanced. I'm back to riding him in a Mylar with a sleeve over the joint. Now this horse has one of the highest palates I've seen (and back in the day I scoped a lot of TBs, standardbreds and warmbloods); but, for now he seems to be most easily settled in this type of Mylar. Still the key to getting him softer and accepting of the bit is going to the ground and re-establishing true connection on each rein independently, then together (I do this under saddle too) and then riding him in total balance - nit picking on straightness and getting AND keeping his hind end under neath him. He is a total back mover so that means I cannot lock up. If I do the yanking and rooting starts. Again, he tells on me too just in a different way and due to somewhat different sensitivities compared to Junior; but, the one thing that is for sure - if you don't have the hind end and/or back happy, it will often be demonstrated in the bridle.