Reins and contact

[Sue B]

So someone, Musical Comedy I believe, suggested a contact thread so we don't derail the goals and progress thread. Here we go!

Gwen, I have struggled with my Rudy to find the right combination of hand, seat, leg to keep him from shortening and raising his very upright, kind of ewe neck. A couple years ago I attended the USDF Adult Series Clinic with HG in which she emphasized a shorter but more forward rein. It took me the better part of a year to coordinate all the parts but I think I have mastered it now. Keys are 1) keeping the elbows bent AND just in front of your body, like holding a tray or a couple glasses of wine out in front of you. 2) Sitting to the front of the saddle directly over your thighs, keeping chest open (no hunching allowed.) 3) Hands should be (at least for my horse) very quiet--no fiddling allowed. 4) Legs in contact with horse all the way down to the ankle without a gripping knee. This last one was the most difficult for me given my pony's apple shape; otoh, I know Rudy is truly "through" when my leg just naturally drapes around him all the way down. With your elbows bent, it is very easy to soften your arms and to even give the rein (like when jumping) and with your hands very quiet, your horse will hear the whispers instead of having to "shout." As Khall noted, hands too high will make curling worse and as someone else noted, hands too low will work on the bars and may cause inversion. I try to picture those BNT types when I ride in order to get all my parts in the right place. Video and pony suggest I am not always successful but it is getting better.

Y'all are absolutely welcome to chime in and agree or disagree. Hoping for a good discussion!

ETA: Even though Tio is still very green and has the perfectly shaped hunter's neck, I try to ride him the same way as Rudy when it comes to the reins. He really appreciates the quietness of body and hands and resents it if i get too fiddly. Supremely hard to do when he tries to counter bend or take off for "the hills."

[musical comedy]

LOL Sue, all that criteria is difficult to achieve, but it's all true.

I was thinking about this as I just finished riding.

The hand position you mention (elbows bent and just in front of your body) needs a picture. I think 'classically' that is what we want. Where I see a problem is when someone adapts this position and the horse isn't truly in front of the aids and forward. Then, if the horse drops the contact, you are sitting there with reins too long which temps a less talented rider into rotating backwards to keep a contact. That has been me!

You see that classical long rein/bent arm position a lot in the pics of the auction horses and they can pull it off because the horses are very forward and strong with great riders.

I certainly don't advocate a straight arm, but until you are at the point with your horse's training that you can maintain the classical position, the I like the reins shorter, thinking forward, so that you can easily feel if the connection is about to be lost and use your leg and seat to reconnect. That would mean the elbows are in front of the hips, still keeping bent.

I'm edited this in. Here's an old pic of Klimke. That is an impeccable connection imo. See how the horse is 'drawing' into the taut contact. There are many pics of Hilda we can look at as well and they all have various hand positions.



HILDA. See, no sharp 45 degree angle in the arm with the reins at the pommel.



Here's an auction shot with the more classical position. This horse is well in front of the leg and drawing.

[khall]

Now I have a very different thought on reins and contact and use of said reins. Elbow at the side, the upper arm belongs to the trunk of the body, the forearm/hand belongs to the horse. Elbows soft and elastic. Ear, shoulder, hip, heel alignment (within rider anatomy differences). Use of illiopsoas muscle complex to lift the pubic bone up in front, lengthening the thigh so it rotates inward and downward. Depending again on rider anatomy, some will ride with a straighter leg some will ride with more bend in the knee (those long thigh people of which I am not one!)

The elbows stay connected to the trunk so that the rider rides as a unit and not in pieces. To soften the rein the rider can lower the hand (the lower hand is not to get the horse "on the bit" but to allow just a slight lengthening of the neck to open the throat latch). I see way too many horses ridden with neck compressed, too short and then having to be driven to keep the hind legs under. Just a slight longer neck and the horse has a place to put the hind legs instead of being blocked. I see this often in canter where the horse is almost 4 beating in his "collection" instead of jumping with active hind legs and getting longer period of suspension.

Rein aids: up, down, rotate L and R. Up to activate the bit against the corners of the mouth to encourage a release of the TMJ. Can also use arets to ask the horse to stay up and out. Down as I had said before. Rotate L and R. Rotate the wrist so thumb points out and the rein comes into contact with the horse's neck. Sometimes it is the outside rein to help control the outside shoulder, sometimes it is inside rein to ask for inside lateral flexion, sometimes both rotated to inside (with a trained horse) to ride with as little rein interference as possible. This is where both hands are less than a hands width apart. Rotate out inside rein to lead the green horse around a turn, matching the inside rein to inside hoof to help the horse to make a turn. Rotate out outside rein to help draw the shoulders of the horse out, standing them more upright and allowing the inside leg to step under center mass better.

The way Mark Russell taught was to educate the horse to the rein aids using in hand methods ala Nuno Olivera so the horse has an understanding of the bit and reins before the rider ever sets seat on them. You use these exercises to develop the horse's understanding and education over time. Keeping the neck long with the ability to release inward and downward, keeping the TMJ released and lateral flexion at occiput/C1. All is taught on the ground first in caveson then bit/bridle. So the horse understands our aids once ridden and we can keep them released to the bridle in riding allowing for free forward movement and no blocking of the hind legs. The use of figures and lateral work and exercises is then what brings the horse into collection as they get stronger in their work as we straighten and align their spine asking the hind leg to step under center mass and being able to mobilize the shoulders which collects the horse.

[musical comedy]

Now I have a very different thought on reins and contact and use of said reins. Elbow at the side, the upper arm belongs to the trunk of the body, the forearm/hand belongs to the horse. Elbows soft and elastic.

I knew you would. As I said, different opinions from different people.
Mark Russell was one with the droopy reins, but I never saw any photos or videos of him doing much. The riders I admire and want to emulate ride like this.

[kande50]

Mark Russell was one with the droopy reins, but I never saw any photos or videos of him doing much. The riders I admire and want to emulate ride like this.

Yes, that's definitely a huge part of the difference between the different philosophies on contact, as I haven't wanted to ride like those who ride competitively since I left the dressage barn I lessoned at back in the 90's.

IMO, Mark accomplished so much more than those who have been winning in comps, because he not only taught students how to ride with light aids, but he could also see the difference between horses who did all the movements while still on the forehand, and those who actually lightened their front ends.

[galopp]

If the elbows are in front of the trunk, rather than part of it (in trot), then the stability of the trunk tends to be lost, as well as the effect of the seat (so the seat will have to do more, or be used excessively). Think of carrying a tray with drinks on it in a room full of people, they will slosh if the tray is carried low or in front of the trunk. In walk or canter (where there is bascule/telescoping) the rider allows the movement in the shoulder socket and elbow joints slightly (as one might do with the bascule over the fence), not low or high (crest release) but with a straight line from elbow to horses mouth (auto release). In short the upper arms hang vertically (to test this put the reins in one hand and let the other hand hang down), this allows the shoulder blades to be flatten, and the rider to sit over the center of motion. Additionally it is ear/shoulder/hip/back of heel in alignment.

To keep a horse from shortening the neck the key elements are keeping a connection to the corners of the lips (not onto the bars which comes from a low hand) and to use lateral flexibility which also mobilizes the jaw. Thus in millimeters (or more) the horse will 'chew the reins from the hand' and legnthen the neck andoropen the outline (as the rider allows).

[Chisamba]

Ah, we are trying this again.

My ideal us straight line contact from elbow to bit. Sadly I have up creeping hands. I also like to have my default position be elbows near trunk, elastic and bent. Because I want to be able to give forward without straightening the arm.

I think if you do have enough weight in the rein to have a stable contact, using the rein is more considerate than taking contact from a draped rein.

Floppy reins are not kind, every time the rein moves, the bit moves, how is that considerate of the horses well-being?

How much weight is what I consider. It should be equal, Imho. Not heavier in the outside and empty in the inside, nor dead or hanging on one and light on the other.

I also think the contact should encourage roundness over the top line. Not more round from tail to croup, nor more round from Crest to ears.

At times and in moments of every ride, ideal is absent, lol, but consistent is better because it is impossible to work with inconsistent contact. Imho.

[khall]

https://www.facebook.com/markandhela/ph ... =3&theater

Here is a pic of Mark riding his mare Willow. I don't see droopy reins here at all. Willow has released to the inside and created a bit of a loop but she is connected to the outside rein in collection. Very different than Blueberry here and Charlotte. I always felt Blueberry would have been even better if he had been allowed just a slightly longer neck instead of jammed up like he is here.

Again this is competitive dressage, something I have not liked in quite a few years since the pervasive use of RK, LDR etc. I came from time when riding BTV and in compression was a major no no, lucky to get a 5 for that movement. Then Remmi and NU won gold and boy do I remember all the hoopla over that!

From this pervasive use of RK, our eye has developed to not see the neck compression and all the problems associated with blocking the hind legs. Plus these horses win gold medals so they must be doing something right! Yeah, go take a look at Edward Gal riding at Aachen, that horse is a pretzel and he should be carded for that riding.

[musical comedy]

Here is a pic of Mark riding his mare Willow. I don't see droopy reins here at all.

I do. I suspect that if I were to see the pair moving, it would not have much power and pizzaz. I would rather not pick at Mark though, God rest his soul.

I came from time when riding BTV and in compression was a major no no, lucky to get a 5 for that movement. Then Remmi and NU won gold and boy do I remember all the hoopla over that!

Don't forget, I came from a time long before you. So, I remember what was winning and how the scoring went in those days. That pic I put up of Klimke was a long time ago. Here we are talking about contact and hand position. I don't see any btv in my photos.

From this pervasive use of RK, our eye has developed to not see the neck compression and all the problems associated with blocking the hind legs. Plus these horses win gold medals so they must be doing something right! Yeah, go take a look at Edward Gal riding at Aachen, that horse is a pretzel and he should be carded for that riding.

My eye development is just fine. I am an equal opportunity critiquer. Actually, I pay more attention to our national riders in the small tour because that is more what I used to want to do. I haven't seen much if any pretzeling or unattractive riding in the national small tour. I don't doubt it exists, but it's not prevalent.

And again. this is about hand/arm/contact (not RK or the age old classical vs. competition thing). If someone can get their horses to small tour level riding with loopy reins and their hands at the pommel with a sharp 45 degree angle of the elbow, then that's great for them. However, if that person (hypothetical) is still doodling along at the same place year after year, then maybe think about changing something.

[Sue B]

Just to add: I'm an older rider, and so Klimke will forever be my go-to BNT to emulate. I also think that Ingrid has developed into a truly fine rider. All great riders/trainers have their good points and their flaws...I'm okay with that.

Regarding elbows...On Scotty, my 17.1 TB with massive shoulders and angular hind end, keeping my elbows "anchored" to my torso was just the ticket, but he was retired many years ago and passed on several years ago. Lad, and now Rudy, seem to reach for the bit (or go TO the contact) better with elbows still bent but to the front of the torso. Lad too has passed on , dying from a ruptured aneurysm Dec 2013 schooling at 3rd level, and so I'll never know how it would have carried forward into higher levels. Rudy is just now schooling 2nd/3rd, but from what I feel under me and what I see on video, I'm pretty sure this shorter rein thing is going to work well for him over the long haul. As mc sort of said, the shorter rein takes away any backwards thought in my hands--something which is easy to do on a high-necked horse like Rudy.

Carry on! great conversation, I think.

[galopp]

I have a question: isn't power supposed to give fold the hind leg joints more and produce amplitude (in collection airtime, in extension huge ground covering)? If that where true why wouldn't the extensions of such 'power ridden horses' (which are being compressed in the neck and ridden with torqued curbs, etc), not producing air time (which would given them a slower tempo rather a faster tempo) and huge ground gaining? And why would the collection not have lowered quarters w/o leaning over the forearms (in piaffe, and in canter pirouette where the hocks are straightened rather than folding)? And why would real power not produce lightness and self carriage (vs compression with torque)?

[khall]

MC I see a very incorrect outline with Blueberry. Broken at C3, closed throat latch and neck in compression. Why he is flicking his front hoof. Here is the extended trot definition:Extended trot. The horse covers as much ground as possible. Maintaining the same cadence, he lengthens his steps to the utmost as a result of great impulsion from the hind quarters. The rider allows the horse, remaining "on the
bit", without leaning on it, to lengthen his frame and gain ground. The fore feet should touch the ground on the spot towards where they are pointing. The movement of the fore and hind legs should be similar (parallel) in the forward
moment of the extension. The whole movement should be well balanced and the transition to collected trot should be smoothly executed by taking more weight on the hind quarters.

I don't see any lengthening of frame here, I do see Blueberry leaning on the bit with open mouth. The front hoof will not land where it is pointing but instead will draw back from this flicked position. There is not equal triangles but with the horse having bigger front stride compared to the hind legs. Blueberry is a very powerful horse with big movement, but IMO he was most often crammed up to the bridle and ridden in compression.

I think this a more classic and fits the rules better extension: Cardi https://www.pinterest.com/pin/317644579941503112/

He has great freedom of shoulder yet his hind legs are just about matching his front triangle with the front hoof pointing to where it will land and his nose slightly IFV. Lots of power and lift. One of the tells I like to look at is what is thefront leg doing. When the front leg that is grounded comes behind the vertical the horse is over their shoulders and not maintaining their uphill balance.

This is a better Blueberry photo in extended trot. Look at the triangles, the length of neck, a bit open in the throat latch and IFV, look at the front leg that is back, vertical to the ground. The only point would be still the toe flick.
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/280700989252643781/ but better than the picture you posted.

[musical comedy]

I have a question: isn't power supposed to give fold the hind leg joints more and produce amplitude (in collection airtime, in extension huge ground covering)? If that where true why wouldn't the extensions of such 'power ridden horses' (which are being compressed in the neck and ridden with torqued curbs, etc), not producing air time (which would given them a slower tempo rather a faster tempo) and huge ground gaining? And why would the collection not have lowered quarters w/o leaning over the forearms (in piaffe, and in canter pirouette where the hocks are straightened rather than folding)? And why would real power not produce lightness and self carriage (vs compression with torque)?

THIS ISN'T ABOUT COLLECTION. THIS IS ABOUT ARM POSITION AND CONTACT. WHY DERAIL THE TOPIC. YOU ALWAYS WANT TO GET INTO DISCUSSION ABOUT THE SAME CRAP.

[tlkidding]

I think that picture of Valegro shows a level poll through 3rd vertebra - the 3rd vertebra is not at the crest but rather down in the middle of the neck...His forehead also perfectly on the vertical. I do think that he can look like he has a "tight neck" sometimes but I think Charlotte rode him right on the edge of correct and too round, curled, deep, etc. and I think her bravery for riding that edge is what earned her the scores. Someone else would ride a little more in front of the vertical and that would just slightly decrease their scores.

As for arm and hand position - I have a tendency to ride with hands too low and open, especially when I'm dealing with tension and lack of suppleness. But when everything is flowing well and light and easy, it's a lot easier to get my hands up and closer together. However, because of my conformation, I have to ride with my elbows in front of my trunk. If I had my elbows "by my side," my hands would be at or behind the pommel of the saddle, almost over my thighs, and too far back over the withers. I think of my upper arms as belonging to my back and trunk but that doesn't mean I need to glue my elbows to my sides.

[galopp]

(The discussion was about what the contact produced in the development of power, and that refers back to reins/contact and comes from the positioning of the rider.)

[Josette]

This topic took a long time for me to learn coming from a western background. I tended to ride with too long reins and super soft contact. I'm a visual learner plus rely on feel so this is one of my favorite videos. This is an video demo is how I strive to ride to improve my position and ride my horse. Soft, relaxed, obedient and flowing as a partners. Once I learned the feel of this type of riding it is my goal for every ride. I agree with how Chisamba described equal contact in both reins and encourage roundness over the top line and being consistent.

I like this trot video because the hands / elbows are the same at rising or sitting trot - soft and quiet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPidt1Qo5gc

[kande50]

Floppy reins are not kind, every time the rein moves, the bit moves, how is that considerate of the horses well-being?

Horses are perfectly capable of stabilizing a bit in their mouth all by themselves.

Something I noticed right away back when I was free lunging my horse at liberty, was that the first time I put a bit in his mouth (no reins) his head and neck became much stiller, which I think was because that helped him stabilize the bit in his mouth. And when I added draped reins it remained still, and the reins didn't swing, because he held the bit and his head so that they wouldn't.

But I do agree that if the rider is incapable of picking up the contact without rattling the bit in the horse's mouth, then it might possibly be kinder to keep the contact--depending on how firm the constant contact was.

[kande50]

THIS ISN'T ABOUT COLLECTION. THIS IS ABOUT ARM POSITION AND CONTACT. WHY DERAIL THE TOPIC. YOU ALWAYS WANT TO GET INTO DISCUSSION ABOUT THE SAME CRAP.

Perhaps because it's all connected, so it's not very productive to discuss one aspect all by itself?

[Dresseur]

I started writing something and thought I saved the draft, but, poof!

In any case, there are a lot of "if's" in arm position, rein length etc. If the rider doesn't have t-rex arms or orangutan arms, if the horse has an ideal neck, coming out at an ideal angle, if the horse maintains that angle and doesn't want to carry down or up, if you have enough energy from behind to fill the rein... you get my drift. I try to keep my elbows slightly in front of my midline, height is about in line with my belly button. I take upwards hh, which is why in some pictures, my hand appears to be high - that is only for a moment and then I put it back. The rein length is completely dependent on the horse and how successful I am at riding the horse up to the hand. A horse that ducks, I may be quite short in the rein to find them, a horse that takes the rein honestly, I may be a bit longer. If I don't have enough horse coming up, I tend to go too long and put my elbows behind me. If you ride with your elbows in front of you, I find that people with shorter torsos and shorter arms are more successful at that. I for one, have had to work on my back and shoulders in order to stop bringing my elbows back to my body so much. There is a saying, anything that you want to adjust in the hand, adjust with your back instead. That makes the reins a fine tuning agent, not a huge correctional agent.

Firmness in contact is another thing, and I find this to be personal to the horse - I for one, do not mind if there is a heavy contact for a few steps as long as I can correct it, and I subscribe to the notion that no one gets to pull. Not me, not the horse. A horse that is struggling with something may need more support, but then I change something to create lightness again. For instance, when the horse first learns transitions between the gaits, they will crash into you a bit - to me, this is not a cause for concern, as long as it's a moment and as long as the general trend is towards lighter. But, overall, I want the horse to be there, so that I can adjust the neck, I want to feel as though the horse is drawing the bit away from me, but when I do a hh, I feel it in the whole body (joints flex to bring the whole horse more together). This can be taught at a very early age.

[Ryeissa]

Floppy reins are not kind, every time the rein moves, the bit moves, how is that considerate of the horses well-being?

Horses are perfectly capable of stabilizing a bit in their mouth all by themselves.

My worst rides were with floppy reins, the horses were pissed. I also disagree that they "stabilize the bit" by themselves. what does this even mean? how can the horse stabilize the bit when the rider won't stop moving it?

There is a difference in accepting the bit, the mouth, and accepting the aids (leg, seat, hand).

[Ryeissa]

https://www.facebook.com/markandhela/photos/a.111713192184642.11272.111631675526127/1133707489985202/?type=3&theater

Here is a pic of Mark riding his mare Willow. I don't see droopy reins here at all.

I would want the horse with more "stuffing" then presented here. Very good discussion (well, mostly!)

[demi]

I have experience, limited, but still valid, in riding both with short reins/hands forward, and longer reins/ upper arms at my side. It seems to me that, as Dresseur pointed out, there are a lot of "ifs" involved in rein length and arm position. I personally have a short torso and long arms so am more comfortable with a longer rein and arms at my side.

However, with my short backed, athletic cow pony, Rocky, I felt more comfortable when she was still young (3-6 yrs) riding with a short rein and my hands forward. The worked for her, too. It gave me more stability when she jumped around and acted silly. Now that she is 10 and has settled down and I know her better, I can ride with a longer rein, my upper arms at my side. And while short reins/forward hands gave me more stability at one point, it would now make me less stable on her. Interesting to think about why the change...

I tried both ways with my other horse Emma, starting with long reins, then going to short reins, and am now back with long reins. There have been many factors ("ifs") involved with Emma. But in both my horses, I can say that the "rein/contact" issue is very much a part of the development of power, the development of collection, and the positioning of the rider.
i

[Flight]

I've always wanted to be able to ride with a draped rein like that pic of Mark. I'd love to have such a light contact and be able to sit there and just have my horses off my seat and in full self carriage. My instructor says this can be possible, but with a 'finished' horse.
I've finally started shortening my reins enough to have a steady contact and it works much better, I like riding with the shorter rein and arms more forward because it's easier for me not to pull back that way.
Musical comedy, those photos are of people in extended trot, so maybe their arms are more forward for that? However I watched a test of Charlotte's on young horse and she rides with her arms quite forward and up.

[demi]

I too, very much like the picture of Mark and his mare. I have no doubt that she would have given him a wonderful extended trot if he'd asked for it.

[musical comedy]

I too, very much like the picture of Mark and his mare. I have no doubt that she would have given him a wonderful extended trot if he'd asked for it.

I wish there was a way we could place a $$ bet on that, because I do think so. I have lots of photos of myself on various horses riding with the draped rein. LOL, yes, and they are all behind the aids. I'm not saying it can't be done; i.e. the loose reins to extended, but it is not common. When it is done, it is usually on a baroque smaller horse.

Flight, I didn't spend a lot of effort trying to select a variety of photos. You are correct in that the gait and movement a horse is in has something to so with the hand position. In half pass, you will see most international horses with lighter contact.

[khall]

tk, and this is why I think what has happened in the dressage competition world has trained our eye so differently than what the directives were originally written for. In extended trot the horse should lengthen his frame, instead we most often see horses jammed into the bridle with short necks, hollow backs and trailing HQs or like Blueberry, pushed out of balance and over his shoulders (take a look at the grounded hind hoof, it will come off the ground before the grounded front hoof, he is out of balance here) Riders push their horses for these big extensions to get those huge scores, regardless of the balance of the horse. They have to have those short reins to help keep the horse from falling even more on it's front end.

That type of riding Mark would never ask for, he was ALWAYS concerned about the balance of the horse. If you asked for medium and the horse got quick or out of balance, you made a down transition or better yet, made the down transition BEFORE the horse lost it's balance. Never ask more than what your horse can give to you and stay in balance. Take the time it takes to build the horse up for the more difficult movements. Always be fair to our partners. As a rider I am one to push for more than I should, it was just my natural inclination. Riding with Mark helped me to rein that tendency in and work more with the horse and be a better partner. To set the horse up and then allow. That is what riding in lightness is about. Does not mean there is not energy there in the horse, but the balance of the horse is the cornerstone of the work. Activate the hind legs but don't run them off their feet.

I did not ever get to watch Mark ride Willow unfortunately. I saw him ride several of his other horses but none as talented as Willow and his gelding Sola. I did see Mark ride Rip quite a bit and believe me Rip had to stay active when Mark was on board! Mark was very insistent about the activity of the hind leg with Rip. We worked hard on that so he would react to light aids. So that a touch of the calf meant something. Same with the bridle, the horse was to stay released to the bridle and in self carriage, never to lean on the bit and have the rider hold them together. Does not mean there is not contact, just means that there is not so much tension in the reins so that the horse is held in compression or held in balance. The horse should carry themselves.

[kande50]

In half pass, you will see most international horses with lighter contact.

Which may very well tell us something about lateral work, collection, and the quality of the contact.

[Flight]

Khall, you sound so much like my current instructor! I'm very impatient and know I need to just relax and give my horses time, but it's so hard to be patient.

I have noticed that too Musical comedy, the lighter contact in half passes.

[musical comedy]

I have noticed that too Musical comedy, the lighter contact in half passes.

They need that freedom to be able to free their shoulders for the crossing and keep the suppleness. jmo However, the prerequesite (as I wrote earlier) is before starting the HP, the horse really needs to be well in front of the aids.

I want to say a bit about photos, whether they are from one of us or one we pull off he internet. We all know that photos are just a moment in time, and that has been the excuse used for those that have supported the bad photos of some BNT's. It's not only photos of bad moments in time that are used as examples, but also good moments.

I can look through any video I have of all horses I've owned, and no matter how shi##y the ride, I can find several photos where it looks nice. So much cannot be seen on a still photo. I see this all the time when I look at the sales photos of horses. Some are very nice, and then I look at the video and . It's impossible for me (can't speak for others) to assess the quality of gait no matter how nice the photo. Engaged hocks and/or great shoulder freedom don't tell the whole story,

[Chisamba]

i do not think it appropriate to discuss picture of some one who is not around to defend them self as an example, as I do not feel free to discuss it regarding the photo of Mark. I am not even certain if the picture was posted just as an loving memory, or as an example of what is considered correct. She is a lovely horse.

Now, I tend to bring a horse along more slowly than those on the fast road to competition. I have friends who want to improve and want to be good riders but have no desire or hurry in their process, however, you cannot not train a horse. Every time you sit on it, you teach it something, so the more times you sit on it you create something. You can choose to create something better balanced, more sound, or happier. I go to a physiotherapist to keep me sound and able some times i do not appreciate the exercises i do, some times i hate getting on the darn treadmill to try and loose some of my excess weight. There are often times i do not really want to do things that know i need to do to be healthier. At times my horses do not really want to do the things that I know improve their balance, their soundness, their fitness. Sure i would rather lie in front of the tv eating bon bons, and i am sure my horse would rather sit in green fields and eat grass all day, that is what she did when i got her and she was almost dead, 4 years old, obese laminitic, with abscessed feet.

[musical comedy]

i do not think it appropriate to discuss picture of some one who is not around to defend them self as an example, as I do not feel free to discuss it regarding the photo of Mark.

We discuss photos of ODG's all the time? If a photo or video is up on the open web, then why isn't it ok to discuss it?

I was thinking about asking our mod the rules on this, as I have found a video of someone highly respected that is pretty horrendous. It's just very poor and rough riding and I think it should be shared before anyone pays money to ride with this person. Does anyone here want to see such a thing?

Posters have a field day over on COTH ridiculing a couple people to the point even I object, yet the mods just allow it.

[Dresseur]

I think that this is the problem with critiquing stills only. I, or anyone else can carefully cultivate an image based on the still photos that I choose to share. If your eye is developed enough, you can really fool people. Now, what stills can't hide is overall balance, deviations in the positioning and rider position flaws. But tempo, rhythm, lightness, those very, very important aspects to the overall quality of the team are hidden. Even with video, we can make all sorts of suppositions about how light the horse is or isn't in the bridle, but unless you sit on that horse, you have no idea how it feels in the mouth, how it feels behind, or how it feels in the back. I've seen horses look incredibly active behind, and you can ride them with a loop in the reins, but the bridge... the back, is rigid and brittle feeling.

So, with that being said, I can make my own assumptions about stills - the one of Mark, in that moment, I don't believe the horse could go into a full extension. There is activity, but it looks down in the shoulder to me, and the very lovely horse is also not poll high. It looks a bit stuck. But, I always want to see the videos to make a better educated guess about what may or may not be going on, you may be very surprised by the story the video tells.

[Tsavo]

MC wrote: "I was thinking about asking our mod the rules on this, as I have found a video of someone highly respected that is pretty horrendous. It's just very poor and rough riding and I think it should be shared before anyone pays money to ride with this person. Does anyone here want to see such a thing?"

Yes I would please.

This is an interesting thread.

In re Mark and the mare, first, that is a gorgeous horse. ☺ Second, I am not sure that is a good moment in time as the rider in not in balance though the horse is.

I, like others, question whether movements on lighter contact can be as brilliant as those on more contact. I admire the power aspect very much because I think the better shape horses are in the healthier and sounder they are in general.

I think it probably takes slightly more skill to ride an FEI test with lighter versus heavier contact but I can't prove that.

I have a question... Is top line development limited by the contact in the same way you can build more muscle with elastic bands that are stiffer in the gym? Is it not the case that Valegro is stronger per se and more muscled than say a horse Mark might produce?

[Ryeissa]

I think the sensitivity comes in because Khall knew Mark personally and it was a tragic loss.
However, in putting it up for critique, not everyone will like it.
I think it is a valid learning experience.

This isn't' the same as putting something in OL such as "the loss of my trainer" and then have someone slam the photo for no reason, uninvited.

This forum already lacks momentum, if you put the halt on these critiques there will be less and less to talk about, I am afraid!

Also, my trainer comments all the time on improvements, it is NOT something to take personally. Same thing here. I don't' personally ride like Mark, that is ok. Others prefer that style. No problem!

[Chisamba]

I think the wrong contact and even lack of contact can be shown to build wrong muscling.

I do not know, if like weight building, degree of contact influences muscle development. I think contact creates balance, and balance builds muscle.

I realize my above ramble did not actually bring me to a conclusion about contact.

What I meant to say was that using contact via the reins has improved my horses. It has improved their balance, life quality, and even their disposition. Ergo I do not see how contact used respectfully, can be considered harmful. And I know my skills are far from perfect.

[musical comedy]

I was just looking through some of my older photos. There are some cringe worthy ones for sure. I keep bad photos because I am able to use them to see things I'm doing wrong.

What I saw was me riding with long reins and leaning back behind the vertical. Reins too long can result in that and then you end up water skiing.

I think some of us ride in long reins because we think we are being kinder. When a horse isn't confirmed, taking up the contact is often resented by the horse. He starts resisting and then, if the rider isn't accomplished enough, the rider gives in to the horse, thinking they are doing something wrong. Soon the horse learns that he can get his freedom by resisting.

I see this even in my current old guy. Riding alone all the time, I have gotten into a habit of slipping the reins during walk breaks. Now, he wants to root them out of my hands and drop down. They learn so quickly the bad and the good. As Chisamba says, every moment of the ride is a training ride. Never allow yourself to get sloppy. It takes discipline.

[Josette]

So true - been there and have done that too. Also, my guy came with a sneaky fast rooting issue and could really yank the reins. It was another issue we had to have a discussion about but he has learned. It really is about discipline.

edited to add: He only roots when he wants to remove his lovely foamy lipstick.

[Kyra's Mom]

I started writing something and thought I saved the draft, but, poof!

In any case, there are a lot of "if's" in arm position, rein length etc. If the rider doesn't have t-rex arms or orangutan arms, if the horse has an ideal neck, coming out at an ideal angle, if the horse maintains that angle and doesn't want to carry down or up, if you have enough energy from behind to fill the rein... you get my drift. I try to keep my elbows slightly in front of my midline, height is about in line with my belly button. I take upwards hh, which is why in some pictures, my hand appears to be high - that is only for a moment and then I put it back. The rein length is completely dependent on the horse and how successful I am at riding the horse up to the hand. A horse that ducks, I may be quite short in the rein to find them, a horse that takes the rein honestly, I may be a bit longer. If I don't have enough horse coming up, I tend to go too long and put my elbows behind me. If you ride with your elbows in front of you, I find that people with shorter torsos and shorter arms are more successful at that. I for one, have had to work on my back and shoulders in order to stop bringing my elbows back to my body so much. There is a saying, anything that you want to adjust in the hand, adjust with your back instead. That makes the reins a fine tuning agent, not a huge correctional agent.

Firmness in contact is another thing, and I find this to be personal to the horse - I for one, do not mind if there is a heavy contact for a few steps as long as I can correct it, and I subscribe to the notion that no one gets to pull. Not me, not the horse. A horse that is struggling with something may need more support, but then I change something to create lightness again. For instance, when the horse first learns transitions between the gaits, they will crash into you a bit - to me, this is not a cause for concern, as long as it's a moment and as long as the general trend is towards lighter. But, overall, I want the horse to be there, so that I can adjust the neck, I want to feel as though the horse is drawing the bit away from me, but when I do a hh, I feel it in the whole body (joints flex to bring the whole horse more together). This can be taught at a very early age.

Love this explanation. I'm built like a fire plug (with boobs ). You are never going to get "classical" equitation out of me. I do know if I get my reins too long, the horse just ends up on the forehand and is perfectly happy to motor around that way. Half halts are not timed correctly with the longer rein. (yes half halts involve my body too but the bow from leg/body over the top line to the mouth is too slack to get the timing correct). The reins have to be shorter for me to give effective half-halts.

Anyway, I like this explanation because as usual it depends .

Susan

[khall]

I have a request for all who are participating in this discussion. First of all do any of you do in hand work? If so, do you ask the horse while in front of them to release forward and down? And then release L (or stelling) and release R and have the horse hold that posture without holding them there? If you do not do in hand work then I would not stand in front of the horse but at a 45 angle, using either the rings of the bit or the cheek pieces of bridle or cavesson ask the horse to release the neck out and down. Then ask for lateral flexion aka stelling toward you, change sides and ask for stelling other side. If the horse is too resistant with you at the 45 angle then go to side, ask for release inward and downward with just the inside rein. (that may be best starting place is your horse is not familiar with in hand work) see if the horse releases the neck out and down (not dropping the base of the neck) with slight lateral flexion. These are checks to see how our contact and rein connections are working.

What you want to feel is a horse that willingly releases the neck in bascule with softly chewing mouth and being smoothly able to laterally flexL and R without having to be held there with the reins. It should feel smooth and like the joints are oiled up. If there is bracing, check to see if the horse is clenching his jaw. If so you can ask for just a jaw release with horse standing in neutral posture. If the horse braces when asked to release the neck, best way is to ask for just the release to the inside rein first. That can both release the neck and release the jaw. These are all basic in hand work that all horses would be introduced to when working with Mark. The spinal alignment and releasing of the TMJ encouraging the mobile tongue and proper alignment of the hyoid and able to illicit lateral flexion at occiput/C1 are vital steps to a horse that are correct in their biomechanics.

The details of the development of the horse in hand and in the bridle are imperative to the understanding of the horse when the rider is in the saddle. We want the neck posture released and mobile with full spinal alignment and length of boney spinal column. Compression causes tension which inhibits the full ROM from the horse. So while we want a released and mobile neck we ask for engagement of the HQs with active hind leg so the horse will sit more behind and with this engagement the withers will rise and the head and neck will remain long but elevated. This engagement is encouraged with lateral work, transitions and figures. If we try to force this engagement with too short of rein the hind legs of the horse are blocked and are not able to engage properly. Long neck does not mean no contact, it means opening of the throat latch (too often horses are ridden too closed in the neck) and encouraging the length of neck appropriate for the horse's balance at that time.

Anyway, if some of you would try these releases I would love to hear what kind of response you had. These are some of the first work I will do with a horse that I have just started working with, to see what they think about the bit, bridle and reins and the hands of the rider.

[mari]

I started writing something and thought I saved the draft, but, poof!

In any case, there are a lot of "if's" in arm position, rein length etc. If the rider doesn't have t-rex arms or orangutan arms, if the horse has an ideal neck, coming out at an ideal angle, if the horse maintains that angle and doesn't want to carry down or up, if you have enough energy from behind to fill the rein... you get my drift. I try to keep my elbows slightly in front of my midline, height is about in line with my belly button. I take upwards hh, which is why in some pictures, my hand appears to be high - that is only for a moment and then I put it back. The rein length is completely dependent on the horse and how successful I am at riding the horse up to the hand. A horse that ducks, I may be quite short in the rein to find them, a horse that takes the rein honestly, I may be a bit longer. If I don't have enough horse coming up, I tend to go too long and put my elbows behind me. If you ride with your elbows in front of you, I find that people with shorter torsos and shorter arms are more successful at that. I for one, have had to work on my back and shoulders in order to stop bringing my elbows back to my body so much. There is a saying, anything that you want to adjust in the hand, adjust with your back instead. That makes the reins a fine tuning agent, not a huge correctional agent.

Firmness in contact is another thing, and I find this to be personal to the horse - I for one, do not mind if there is a heavy contact for a few steps as long as I can correct it, and I subscribe to the notion that no one gets to pull. Not me, not the horse. A horse that is struggling with something may need more support, but then I change something to create lightness again. For instance, when the horse first learns transitions between the gaits, they will crash into you a bit - to me, this is not a cause for concern, as long as it's a moment and as long as the general trend is towards lighter. But, overall, I want the horse to be there, so that I can adjust the neck, I want to feel as though the horse is drawing the bit away from me, but when I do a hh, I feel it in the whole body (joints flex to bring the whole horse more together). This can be taught at a very early age.

I really like this post, thanks Dresseur.

The other thing I want to comment on (not related to Dresseur's post) is that I don't think having your elbows by your side is required for core stability. I do hours and hours of pilates. I don't need my arms by my sides to have a very stable and strong core and back. Most of the up-and-coming young competitive riders (especially the women, I think), are very aware of the core strength required and work very hard at it.

I'm by no means an upper level rider, but in my limited experience riding with slightly shorter reins with my elbows just a little in front of my trunk has done wonders for both my own position and the tune I can get out of my horse.

[kande50]

Posters have a field day over on COTH ridiculing a couple people to the point even I object, yet the mods just allow it.

The problem there may be that if the mods allow it to start, then it really isn't fair to shut down the discussion when they feel that it has gone on for too long (so some get their say, but others don't). That creates resentment and people leave the group because they don't like the moderation. But then if mods shut down the discussions the second they think they might be going down that path, the only kind of discussion that's allowed is the complimentary or underhanded snarky kind, and that's not what many readers are looking for, either.

Sometimes I think it's best to just let the discussions go where they go, and put the responsibility on readers to read what they like and ignore the rest. So then the mods only responsibilities are to inform the whiners and moderator wannabes that they have the option to ignore what they don't like.

[piedmontfields]

I have a request for all who are participating in this discussion. First of all do any of you do in hand work? If so, do you ask the horse while in front of them to release forward and down? And then release L (or stelling) and release R and have the horse hold that posture without holding them there? ... These are some of the first work I will do with a horse that I have just started working with, to see what they think about the bit, bridle and reins and the hands of the rider.

Yes. I also start with these releases on a new horse (on the ground, then at halt, then at walk). I also expect to be able to eventually do these releases on a horse at all gaits.

I also have a horse who tended to be too disconnected in the contact. The below photo taken shortly after she came to me is an example of how she used to prefer to relate to contact. You can see that there are some "interesting" things going on in the shoulder/neck/hind. And of course my droopy reins!

Emi 2014.jpg (124.12 KiB) Viewed 31170 times

[Dresseur]

Khall I do in hand work quite a bit, both with flexions and then traditional in hand work doing transitions against a wall. I always check these responses before I get on a horse that I don't know. However, when I do them, I make sure that there is a feel on whatever the outside rein is and I make sure the horse follows the bit within the parameters I set. One thing that I think I do differently, is that I don't want the horse to press down onto the bit every time I ask for a bit of flexion, as I find that means that in circles and lateral movements, the horse will also press down into the bit and start to lean. I want a connection, and then when I offer the rein, the horse can follow the rein down. I also, in riding, test the self carriage very, very often, giving one rein or both reins to see if the balance or tempo changes at all.

[musical comedy]

I also have a horse who tended to be too disconnected in the contact. The below photo taken shortly after she came to me is an example of how she used to prefer to relate to contact. You can see that there are some "interesting" things going on in the shoulder/neck/hind. And of course my droopy reins!

Emi 2014.jpg

There are people that would love this posture.

As far as in hand work, put me down for "no, i've never done it". I don't doubt it has great value when done well, but it's not a skill I possess. I see a lot of photos that look to me like it causes the horse to be too soft in the poll. I don't want a horse so light in the mouth that the minute you touch the reins it flexes. Some pics I see (including those of Mark) are horses in what I call a head set. What I call a head set, some other call self carriage I guess.

[Sue B]

Wow! I was busy all weekend, so just getting back to this thread. Great discussion, and a lot to think about. Please continue to keep it focused and positive, and unlike TOB, respect other people's opinions. Y'all are rockin' it!

Khall, I used to do a ton of in-hand because it was critical to retraining Scotty and Lad. I fully expected to do the same with Rudy, but I confess that I simply cannot figure out how to be successful with Rudy on the ground. That's not to say that i did not do flexions and the like from the ground before backing him, but over the years, i admit to abject failure when it comes to accomplishing in-hand work without Rudy bulging the base of his neck. Nonetheless, I continue to try intermittently. For instance, right now I am working on him backing 3-4 steps without neck bulging and without foot dragging. Let's just say it's a work in progress. Tio is sooo much easier in that realm.

So far as competition, in my limitted experience, judging seems to be trending more towards getting folks to ride more "up and out". In other words, I am seeing more comments like "too low", "too round", "nose behind the vertical" and "needs to reach to the bit more." I take that as a good sign. Btw, these comments are mostly on other people's tests. I am looking forward to participating in the "L" program this fall, so I will know more about where the trend is moving.

[demi]

There is a big difference between the pic of Piedmont and Emi, and the pic of Mark and his mare. It is hard, as we have discussed, to see the "whole picture" in just one photograph, however, in Mark's picture I see a horse on the aides, but not so in Emi.

I am not sure why i think I can see the difference, but maybe because I know what it feels like to have a horse "on the aids", when the reins are looped. I had a couple of horses before I got interested in dressage that would easily go from a standstill on a loose rein to a gallop. I had a lot of miles with both of them and a lot of the miles were on the trails and we were very much in tune. I could take either of them anywhere and trust that no matter what the situation, I would be safe.

In Mark's pic, I sense that if he just sat up a bit and closed his legs, his mare would respond instantly with the "what do you want? I'm ready".

I still love the pic of Emi because i know that it was just the start of a great relationship.

[demi]

I have a lot of respect for the in hand work theory but I don't have the discipline to study and practice it. I practice a simplified (very simplified!) version of it, I think. And if someone who knows what they are doing would try it on my mare of 7 years, Rocky, I think they could get some neat stuff out of her very quickly. And I hope in time, the same will be true of Emma.

[Dresseur]

... I see a lot of photos that look to me like it causes the horse to be too soft in the poll. I don't want a horse so light in the mouth that the minute you touch the reins it flexes. Some pics I see (including those of Mark) are horses in what I call a head set. What I call a head set, some other call self carriage I guess.

I agree with this, and I personally do not like the over flexing of the neck that IMO causes collapsing in the neck, and ultimately, disconnects the neck from the back. If every time I touch the bit, the horse disappears, I can't complete the circle of aids - IMO you need to have a connection across the whole top line. A finished horse you can ride on a draped rein when they are in absolute self carriage, but to start training in this way, I personally find creates horses that are frozen in the back and there is no connection from back to front across the top line, which is critical, in my opinion to affecting the hind leg joints and the balance. And to bring it around, training that is affected by the rein length, arm position and evenness in both reins and the responses to all of those things.

[khall]

Dresseur I need to correct some misconceptions you seem to have on the WIH that I do and the training that I received from Mark. The horses we WIH never press down into the bit. We do release the neck out and down to be able to access the back with the horse in a long frame and asking the inside hind leg to step under COM (center of mass) The length of neck is dependent on each horse. They are never bearing down into or onto the bit but carry it with softly mobile jaw. Only when the horse releases to the inside rein can you connect to the outside rein. When the horse releases laterally, they then fill up the outside rein and the rider can begin to establish the balance of the aids with soft inside rein and connected outside rein. This is reinforced by asking the inside hind leg to step under center line of the horse, so the horse begins to understand the inside aid (whip when in hand) to outside hand. This leads the horse to better lateral and longitudinal balance as the horse lightens the inside shoulder and engages the inside hind leg.

Never in the initial training are the horses on a loose or floppy rein, only with an educated horse in greater self carriage can the rider begin to "hold the horse with the seat only" and have a draped rein. Is it done for the entire lesson? No but done in periods of the greatest collection. I will drape the rein a bit with Rip in collected canter, much more than in the trot at this point. Mark's mare obviously has lovely movement and ability to sit behind with an elevated neck. I think what you and MC call posed is just the horse in collection with Mark holding her with his seat only. Like I said, I never got to see the pair work together, but I know Mark felt this mare had not only great movement but also a great mind to work with. She and one other mare are the only 2 horses Mark's wife kept for herself when he died.

The work in hand is never used to teach the horse to hide or retreat from the bit or rein, but to release the TMJ, release the neck and have the lateral releases for proper bending and biomechanics. We want a horse that does not clench the jaw, but has a mobile jaw and tongue so they can softly accept the contact. I have spent many a time WIH where the horse has to be shown how to release the TMJ because of previous riding they have locked against the rein. Kind of hard to get much accomplished when the horse is blocking in the TMJ.

As the horse becomes more accomplished and understanding of the bit, reins and the aids, then the rider uses the WIH to stabilize the horse in the neck as they become more solid in their training. You do that by stabilizing the outside rein with the hand pressed against the shoulder of the horse. By this time the horse has the understanding of the outside rein to control the shoulders and the length of neck. They should be able to do SI in hand with just the outside rein and the whip to encourage the inside hind leg. We do all of the lateral work in hand to educate the horse to the aids before attempting under saddle. SI being the first in the long line of the different movements taught while in hand. Rip and Gaila and their dam Gallie all have SI, HI draw and away, renvere, HP both draw and away, TOH both in draw and away, Rip has full pass, all do RB and trot halt RB work. Just before the ---- hit the fan with Rip I had been working hard with both he and Gaila on being able to do all these movements at the trot too. Great at keeping me in shape out there jogging with them around!! I want to also get to the point of being able to do the WIH movements in canter, just for fun. I am also working with Rip on diagnolizing the walk on the straight line to then be able to energize that diagnolized walk into piaffe. He has half steps both US and in hand, and has done true piaffe US but I have been playing with that concept in the WIH and I think I finally found the right mix.

SueB if Rudy is not coming up out of the base of the neck with the WIH you may need to "reset his neck" as Mark called it to teach him how to lift up from the base of the neck from the rein aid. PM me if you want to know the technique to use. I had to do this a good bit with big pushy Rip in hand. He is just that kind of horse trying to take over. Now I use this technique fairly sparingly but have it in my toolbox if needed.

The WIH is not a substitute for US work but a valuable addition to US work.

[Flight]

Yes, I've done this in hand work, but again we know that my instructor is very similar to Mark's training
But again, it is where the horse is in the training and I was surprised when I was being told to shorten my reins and start showing the horse where he needs to hold himself. Still looking for giving to the bit, i.e. not bearing down or being stiff.

I will confess I can at times find it hard in photos to always see the difference between a horse "posed" and in true self carriage. Looking at the horse being up through the base of the neck, and behind the saddle and the hind legs etc but sometimes I think the horse is in true self carriage and others will say it is posed because the rein is loose.