musical comedy wrote:Chisamba wrote:Even Carl is critical of Charlotte arm. It is not considered the part of her riding to emulate. She rides well despite it not because of it. Jmho.
He's supposed to be some kind of authority? He mostly always rides with an arched back and tipped pelvis.

No, but he was at the time her trainer and teacher, and as such worked with her on her posture. They used to bicker quite a lot in public, hopefully in good humor, and this was one of the topics of discussion. quote;" Five years ago, Charlotte Dujardin was an aspiring jockey who had never even ridden a dressage horse. Then she asked Carl Hester for some help.
Hester, one of the country’s most successful horse trainers, was hardly short of youngsters looking for work and training in his Gloucestershire stables. But Dujardin, then barely 20, caught his eye and he took her under his wing." which information i am sure you already knew. If only perfect people became trainers there would be none.
i find it interesting that people keep posting pictures of horses in extended trot, touting that the elbow should be forward. Of course it is forward in extended gaits. Do you ride collected gaits and extended gaits with the same upper arm? The point or riding with a vertical upper arm in collected gaits is so that you can in fact give the arm forward for extension. How, might i genuinely ask, if you always ride with a forward arm, do you find room to give when you need to for extended gaits?
The horse and rider contact should be able to accommodate accordion like changes. As such, I have been taught by every instructor i ever rode with, that the vertical arm is desired to keep the horse more fully influenced by the core, in collected gaits, and the arm allows forward for either extended or medium gaits, or for release, or bascule, in walk and canter. There should, imho, be no bascule in trot. I did attend a clinic with a south american who insisted that i carry my hands forward, in the whole ride clinic it was the only thing he addressed. I remember commenting on it on the old udbb. Funny thing being at that time, "everyone" supported the vertical upper arm as ground zero. I guess it must have been before the Charlotte fad.
In my opinion the forward arm is a direct backlash against Gal who rode Totilas in a very vertical arm even in the extended gaits, and of course produced a false trot .

of the competitive riders i think Helen Langehanenberg and Damon Hill might show the middle ground between the two, Gal and Dujardin. Unfortunately the disagreement about finances and Damon Hill shortened her riding career on him. if you look at pictures on her you will see the vertical upper arm in the collected work and somewhat of a forward given elbow in the more extended gaits.

and more extended:

of course you will be able to find things to criticize about her seat too, even though she came from the Klimke "school" having worked with Ingrid too at some time.
I do not really expect any rider to be perfect, there was an SRS rider who was constantly mocked for his posture, who was able to achieve wonderful riding in his partnerships with the stallions.
tact and consistency stand for more than posture imho. when people insist a horse cannot be ridden without inside leg to outside rein i post a picture of a person without legs showing in dressage.
when a person claims that elbows have to be in a certain place to ride, i post a picture of a person with one arm riding dressage.
there really are no definitive methods. there are however tried and true methods that have stood the test of time and consistently produced the change of balance and partnership one idealizes in dressage. it is certainly easier to find the path by learning from generations of other riders than attempting to invent your own