Episode 2 in which Bats79 expertly solves my lunging problem

[Tsavo]

Bats79 wrote:

Proprioception has changed with the pulling of the shoes. Even a small amount of "yield" through the hoof that wasn't there with the shoes - also perhaps different breakover - has changed the whole way the energy returns through the leg. Forelegs are particularly sensitive to this.

I was thinking about this off and on all day.

I decided if he either trotted or cantered to me today when I called him that I would work in the ring with him. If he walked, I would just walk him on the hills in hand. He trotted so we did some ring work on the lunge but on the track.

We always start walk left and I just decided I would just start left even though that is the concerning direction. And he goes left all the way down the first long side on about 15 feet of line. Then he stops and tried to turn 4 times on the second long side. Then it gets progressively sticker.

Then we go right and he doesn't have a single care. He trotted just off me starting to run. We went around the track three times and he is definitely sound now. He is also sound going left. So he is sound-sound.

Now seeing he started out fine to the left at first and then it got sticky, I thought of Bats79's comment I reposted above. He is sound so why the reluctance. Then I started telling him WALK WALK SLOW WALK WALK WHOA WALK WALK etc.. He suddenly becomes relaxed and walks about 15 feet out on the lunge. He will walk relaxed left as long as I am reinforcing that I want walk or slow or even halt (which he blows thru now for some reason). The reason he was willing to walk on the track at first is because we always walk at first. He knew I would not ask for an upward. He becomes concerned if I stop telling him WALK or apply any pressure even with my body position to do more.

The answer is he is concerned about me asking him to trot or canter going left despite the fact that he is sound. If he thinks I will not ask for an upward he will walk left on at least 15 feet of line relaxed.

This solves the walking left part. I still have to wait a bit more to ask for trot although he did do a bit of trot the other day which is how I know he is still sound in that direction.

At the vet recheck, I will ask him about going back in shoes. I think the heel looks pretty good and he is sound now. If the heel underruns again I will have to have a different plan.

Thank you Bats79. I owe you a big favor for planting that idea.

[Bats79]

That's fantastic. When he is ready to trot you will have to insist that he doesn't run away in fear of how it will feel. Many horses use speed to escape discomfort and discomfort doesn't automatically equal pain.

[Tsavo]

That's fantastic. When he is ready to trot you will have to insist that he doesn't run away in fear of how it will feel. Many horses use speed to escape discomfort and discomfort doesn't automatically equal pain.

Yes I think you are correct about this also. He was blowing through requests to halt even which shocked me. It was almost like it was harder to stop once he was going. I really think you are correct about this balance/proprioception issue because there is probably no other explanation for being sound yet at DefCon 1 unless he thinks he is going to fall or his feet just feel too damn weird. This horse has been in front shoes for most of his life as far as I know. It must feel strange to be barefoot and I will get him back in shoes as soon as possible. I feel bad for pulling the shoes and making him feel like that but it will grow the heel. And yet he is totally fine going right. Whatever. I will give him time now that I think I know what he is dealing with. It was perplexing. You saved me from brooding about this constantly.

[Tsavo]

That's fantastic. When he is ready to trot you will have to insist that he doesn't run away in fear of how it will feel. Many horses use speed to escape discomfort and discomfort doesn't automatically equal pain.

It occurred to me that this is why he started trotting and cantering to me when I call him after we pulled the shoes. He usually only walked. It must feel so weird.

The thought also occurred to me that if he doesn't get shoes on soon I am probably obliged to scope him for ulcers. He never had any indication of them but with the barefoot situation, I think his nervous system is getting fried.

[Bats79]

You don't need to scope for ulcers. Just treat him as though he has them as far as diet is concerned.

I am now of the opinion that every horse that gets a course of antibiotics or goes through some stressing / irritating time gets ulcers. We have just had a traumatic few months with our older stallion when we moved him to a different location because we weren't breeding with him any more. We thought the pressure would be less if there were no mares around.

Turned out that he, the only male that we have that has grown up NOT with other boys all the time, found it far to stressful with the geldings and other colts and got ulcers from worrying. He did need two months of ulcer meds but now is just fine (back home and running the fence occasionally because he can't get to the girls) but much more relaxed in himself all the same.

[Tsavo]

You don't need to scope for ulcers. Just treat him as though he has them as far as diet is concerned.

I am now of the opinion that every horse that gets a course of antibiotics or goes through some stressing / irritating time gets ulcers. We have just had a traumatic few months with our older stallion when we moved him to a different location because we weren't breeding with him any more. We thought the pressure would be less if there were no mares around.

Turned out that he, the only male that we have that has grown up NOT with other boys all the time, found it far to stressful with the geldings and other colts and got ulcers from worrying. He did need two months of ulcer meds but now is just fine (back home and running the fence occasionally because he can't get to the girls) but much more relaxed in himself all the same.

Okay that makes sense. Can you give me advise on a ulcer-treating diet?

Do you think this DefCon situation is enough to trigger ulcers in my horse? Do you know of other horses who had fronts pulled who developed ulcers?

Thanks again for all your help on this matter. I have no experience with this.

[Chisamba]

it somewhat depends on your horses daily program of care. If your horse has a mostly hay diet that keeps enough roughage in his stomach often enough to not have it empty for long periods of time, he would be less prone to ulcers.

[Tsavo]

it somewhat depends on your horses daily program of care. If your horse has a mostly hay diet that keeps enough roughage in his stomach often enough to not have it empty for long periods of time, he would be less prone to ulcers.

Okay but I m going to have to balance that with weight control. I think he gets three flakes a day and is on grass half the day. I hope that is protective. He gets balancer and a fig newton with this previcox.

I try to solve one problem and it potentially triggers another. It's a tightrope!

[khall]

Tsavo, I have had to put my plump (ok FAT) mare that is prone to ulcers (has been scoped and treated for 3 months, big $$$ thankfully had insurance) on some alfalfa for ulcer control. She is on grass hay (soaked to reduce sugars) and wears a grazing muzzle when out. She gets alfalfa cubes and alfalfa chopped hay (alfalfa lox by Triple Crown) mostly because good baled alfalfa is hard to find here. She is on no concentrates, gets the alfalfa 4 different times a day between the cubes and chopped hay.

She can get crabby and backed off but will also act a bit colicy when her ulcers kick up. BTW I did discuss this diet with my vet and he approved of it.

[Tsavo]

Tsavo, I have had to put my plump (ok FAT) mare that is prone to ulcers (has been scoped and treated for 3 months, big $$$ thankfully had insurance) on some alfalfa for ulcer control. She is on grass hay (soaked to reduce sugars) and wears a grazing muzzle when out. She gets alfalfa cubes and alfalfa chopped hay (alfalfa lox by Triple Crown) mostly because good baled alfalfa is hard to find here. She is on no concentrates, gets the alfalfa 4 different times a day between the cubes and chopped hay.

She can get crabby and backed off but will also act a bit colicy when her ulcers kick up. BTW I did discuss this diet with my vet and he approved of it.

Thanks for this, khall. Did you determine when to stop retreating by repeating the scoping or by her behavior?

What behavior might i look for to determine if this barefoot episode has triggered ulcers? Is what you wrote common?

I feed alfalfa cubes as treats. Maybe that helps a little.

[Srhorselady]

I use small amounts of Alfalfa also for those that exhibit any ulcer type signs. And with my vet's approval each horse gets 8 to 10 generic (Walmart brand) tums before being exercised. All of the horses like the peppermint flavored ones and gobble them down two at a time from my hand. Some of my horses spit out the fruit flavored ones, but all like the peppermint. According to both my retired and current vets, this can help when acid splashes in the stomache during exercise. If anyone exhibits loose manure which can be a symptom of hind gut upset or ulcers I get Saccharomyces capsules from the health food store (also at my vet's suggestion) and open about 8 of them into their food. It usually only takes four or five days to clear things up. Saccharomyces is one of the ingredients in Succeed. I've never had anyone get bad enough that I had to do the expensive ulcer protocol.

[Tsavo]

I use small amounts of Alfalfa also for those that exhibit any ulcer type signs. And with my vet's approval each horse gets 8 to 10 generic (Walmart brand) tums before being exercised. All of the horses like the peppermint flavored ones and gobble them down two at a time from my hand. Some of my horses spit out the fruit flavored ones, but all like the peppermint. According to both my retired and current vets, this can help when acid splashes in the stomache during exercise. If anyone exhibits loose manure which can be a symptom of hind gut upset or ulcers I get Saccharomyces capsules from the health food store (also at my vet's suggestion) and open about 8 of them into their food. It usually only takes four or five days to clear things up. Saccharomyces is one of the ingredients in Succeed. I've never had anyone get bad enough that I had to do the expensive ulcer protocol.

Okay that is interesting. How many times a week do you do the Tums? Are you worried about bladder stones?

[Josette]

I'm very interested in these responses as I had posted about my guy's recent bouts with mild colic. He was started back in June on Thyro-Lo and Pracend which I thought coincided when these issues started. I've had my vet out twice and she ruled out ulcers so I've started him on Succeed probiotics along with soaked TC timothy cubes and a sand clear product she recommended as well. So time will tell if this works for him. He gets a large cup of Sentinel LS pellets to eat his meds and vitamin supplements. Otherwise, he is on all hay diet as I pulled him off the grass for weight loss.

SrLady - I really like your response about the peppermint tums before a ride. Excellent idea!

[Tsavo]

I think the thyroxine will give you a boost in the weight loss given the restricted diet (off grass). It works even in normal horses per what I have read.

My horse had an episode several weeks ago where I thought he might be trying to colic. This was after I pulled him out of work for a mild lameness. I alerted the staff to watch him for colic. I think we might be past that.

Because he has been a pudge several years of his life, when he exhibited those colicky actions, I thought of a stangulating lipoma. I am not sure if overweight horses are more susceptible to that and probably I am just spitting in the wind. But if my horse does colic, I am betting it will be that.

This is yet another reason I need to get him back in shoes ASAP. When he started looking at his sides and biting them, I went to DefCon 1. LOL It turns out he has some very mild skin irritation as far as I can tell. It is itchy so I scratched some of it on his haunches with a sweat scrapper for him. I was just scratching and scratching because he was leaning into it until I noticed he was bleeding. I stopped and then a few days later the lesions were gone and he was healed. I think I scratched the organism completely off. Anyway that is what I will be doing if I see any further itchy areas.

Good luck with your boy and I'd like to hear how he does on the thyroxine. I hope the supply lines have stabilized.

[Srhorselady]

I started the tums practise many rears ago after a conversation with my vet. My vet was from an old horse family who had lived in this area for years and he had seen a LOT of horses. One of my borders was giving her mare who had been diagnosed with ulcers (this was in the pre ulcergard days) malox with a syringe. We did not use the same vet but I was curious so I asked him about it. He said most of the then human remedys would help but they would have to be given every time the horse ate to be very effective. The conversation proceeded to the effect of exercise on the always present acid in a horses stomache and as a result I started giving tums to every horse every time they are exercised. I buy the highest strength and the largest quantity and just keep a bottle in my grooming tote. My trainer pops them occasionally too. peppermint is also the herb traditionally recommended for stomache upset. I calculate the dose for each horse based on weight. Occasionally one of the horses will go through the grooming tote looking for more

Although vets know horses get hind gut ulcers there is no easy way to diagnose them since they can't scope there. One of the symptoms can be loose manure. The Saccharomyces seems to help rebalance the hind gut flora. I only use that if there are symptoms. It's not as cheap as tums

[Tsavo]

Hi Srhorselady. So can I ask home many times a week your horse is getting 8-10 tums? That is, how many times does he work a week?

If you rode every day would you still be given 8-10 pills a week? 56-70 pills?

[khall]

My mare was scoped a second time, two months after initial scope. She still showed evidence of ulcers so we went a 3rd month on ulcer guard. Did not scope again. I had been feeding the Triple Crown gastrotech since her ulcer diagnosis. She had another episode this spring after having a need for hospital stay (gelatinous cyst that required her to be flushed several days in a row) she was not happy by herself and then her subsequent recheck haul (2 hour haul) left her showing signs again of ulcers, mildly colicy while on gastrotech. So quit with the gastrotech and asked my vet what kind of supplement, but after discussing it decided the alfalfa would be better bet. One thing he really stresses though is feeding management, keep something in front of them all the time. He highly recommends the slow feeder hay nets, yeah my mare can eat 2 flakes of hay in 30 min with a 1 inch hole hay net, so instead I feed several hay meals throughout the day and spread out the alfalfa. The alfalfa will have effect for several hours (I think 8) and show ability to heal ulcers. So while I am not saying your horse's lameness and no shoes led him to ulcers I am saying his feeding management (3 flakes hay and half day I assume maybe 6 hours grazing) is predisposing him to ulcers and any irritants or out of sorts will compound it. I understand your conundrum! It is way harder to manage an easy keeping horse (I have a barn full of them!) than it is one who you can pour the feed to.

[Tsavo]

Thanks khall.

In re hours on pasture, we are on summer schedule which is night time turnout. They go out at about 5 PM and come in at about 7 or 8 AM I think. If it isn't hot they leave my horse out longer because I like him out and the grass isn't so bad (i.e., good) now.

He has never seemed ulcer-y to me but of course I don't know what to look for. I started feeding alfalfa cubes just as a treat instead of the horse cookies. I am not sure he gets enough to be protective against ulcers. It is only when I saw his extreme concern over walking left on the lunge plus having to deal with no front shoes 24/7 for maybe the first time in his life that I seriously considered whether I need to deal with ulcers.

Do you know if hind gut ulcers have a different presentation behavior-wise than stomach ulcers?

[Tsavo]

Okay I have read up little on this. My horse shows no symptoms of colonic ulcers. I am ruling that out.

I also remembered I have some ranintidine from about 5 years ago. I have to check the shelf life. I think I might dose him while he is barefoot until he gets shoes back on. I will ask my vet about that.

[Srhorselady]

Sorry, didn't understand your question the first time. I have 3 horses currently being worked. One, Cowboy,is ridden or worked at least 3 times a week. He is the youngest at 19 and has the fewest health issues. So he gets at least (8 x 3) 24 tums a week. He is about 1100lbs. Mariano (23 and about 1370lbs) and Freckles (30 and about 1280lbs) each are ridden at least twice a week and get 9 or 10 tums per ride so 18 to 20 each per week. Now that the weather is getting better I will get my act together and each horse will probably go out at least once more per week and get another dose of tums. It is no big deal. I just put the Tums in my hand two at a time while I'm grooming them and they are gone in less than 10 seconds. However, that is why I buy the Walmart generic brand at about $3.50 for 100 plus tablets. what is important is that they get the Tums just before they are worked so they are in the stomache at the right time.

I agree with Khall regarding the feeding schedule. Mine get hay fed in slow feed nets four times daily plus their other pellets/meds etc twice daily, so they have feed in front of them much of the time. Although some of them can inhale it VERY rapidly no matter how small the net holes. Not all of them get alfalfa regularly, but some do. They also have free access to turnout for at least 20 hours daily (except for the one with anhydrosis who is kept in during the day since she insists on standing in the sun). However, my guys are at home and if you are in a boarding situation you need to adapt.

[Tsavo]

Okay thanks Srhorselady.

I am definitely going to ask my vet about tums.

Thanks for the info.

[kande50]

It is way harder to manage an easy keeping horse (I have a barn full of them!) than it is one who you can pour the feed to.

Isn't that the truth! I love the hard keepers, because I can just turn them out on pasture and/or feed free choice hay. Now that my herd is aging I've only got one super easy keeper, and I manage him by letting the rest of them overgraze the paddocks and then I can turn him out to pick. I used to worry about ruining the grass, but as long as I don't let him grind it down to dirt it'll come back.

[Tsavo]

Ugh I missed the vet visit. For got to add my horse.

My husband's company flew him and his team on a charter flight into Puerto Rico to get a manufacturing plant back up and running and I was wrapped around that axle. I hope he has a good supply of food/water/gas. The company is supporting their people there with ferries and charter flights for supplies from the DR. Gas lines are long so he rented a several cars just for the capacity. Cell phone service is okay in San Juan but spotty elsewhere. He has several satellite phones which work intermittently.

We lived and worked in Puerto Rico for three years. I am afraid I would be too sad to see that island in its present condition.

[Srhorselady]

I'm with you on Puerto Rico. The pictures are just devastating. We lived in Isla Verde, a suburb of San Juan, for almost 3 years many years ago. Thank you to your husband and his company for everything they are doing to get Puerto Rico back together.

[Tsavo]

We lived in San Juan and also Guaynabo. My kids were in grade school. I had a project on St. John, USVI. So many memories.

The company is doing everything they can to help the workers. The ferries and charters from the DR are bringing food, water, and generators I think.

My husband has no return flight. He will stay until the disaster recovery team gets the plant to a point where they can bring the workers back on site. I suspect he will be there long enough to take a commercial flight back rather than another charter.

Puerto Rico will recover.