Musical Comedy asks what's it going to take to retire my horse?

[kande50]

If they would sell me a Lameness Locator (TM) we could settle this. But they won't.

Have them send me one too, will you? And I'd also like an xray machine, and will share it with all the other people I know who would like one, too.

[Ryeissa]

If a horse shows no sign of pain, how do you ever know if that horse is in pain?

We can't know even if he limps, because it could be a mechanical lameness that isn't painful.

Lameness is defined as an abnormal stance or gait caused by either a structural or a functional disorder of the locomotor system. The horse is either unwilling or unable to stand or move normally. Lameness is the most common cause of loss of use in horses. ... Lameness is not a disease per se but a clinical sign.

WHAT IS EQUINE LAMENESS?

Lameness is a term used to describe a horse’s change in gait, usually in response to pain somewhere in a limb, but also possibly as a result of a mechanical restriction on movement. We all think of lameness when a horse is obviously limping, but lameness may only cause a subtle change in gait, or even just a decreased ability or willingness to perform.

---

what is mechanical lameness? all lameness is at it's foundation change in movement.

"Body sore" is probably a better term for somethings we are discussing, or irregular gait (not due to pain). Tension or bad training can make horses LOOK irregular and "lame". For example one of my horses had a standing wrap on for 3 months and that leg looked lame but it was just due to muscles knotting up on the hip due to walking weird to compensate- massaged that and the horse stopped limping. I don't call that a true lameness. JMHO

[Tsavo]

If they would sell me a Lameness Locator (TM) we could settle this. But they won't.

Have them send me one too, will you? And I'd also like an xray machine, and will share it with all the other people I know who would like one, too.

The lameness locator is completely different from an x-ray machine. There is no danger associated with reading output from two motion sensors like there is with dealing with ionizing radiation.

The reason they don't sell x-ray machines to the public does not apply to Lameness locators. Your comparison is irrelevant.

[Ryeissa]

If they would sell me a Lameness Locator (TM) we could settle this. But they won't.

Have them send me one too, will you? And I'd also like an xray machine, and will share it with all the other people I know who would like one, too.

The lameness locator is completely different from an x-ray machine. There is no danger associated with reading output from two motion sensors like there is with dealing with ionizing radiation.

The reason they don't sell x-ray machines to the public does not apply to Lameness locators. Your comparison is irrelevant.

So this is a REAL THING? I thought you were joking. Interesting.

https://equinosis.com/
HOW LAMENESS IS MEASURED
The Equinosis® Q with Lameness Locator® biomechanical care platform is a real-time, handheld, field-based system that enables a veterinarian to objectively measure lameness in horses with non-invasive inertial sensors. To learn more, click on the link below that best describes you.

[kande50]

The reason they don't sell x-ray machines to the public does not apply to Lameness locators. Your comparison is irrelevant.

I wasn't comparing them, and was serious that I'd like one of each. I'd like an xray machine for obvious reasons, and a lameness locator so I could figure out whether they actually work. I'd be interested in looking at how they set up the baseline so that they can measure such small deviations without having already established a baseline for the horse.

IOW, when flexions or blocks are done they establish the baseline first, and then they flex or block and compare the results to the baseline. But with the lameness locator, unless they had already established a baseline when the horse was sounder, how would they know that the horse doesn't always move the way he's currently moving?

[Tsavo]

I explained this when you asked about it in the thread on the Lameness Locator.

[kande50]

I explained this when you asked about it in the thread on the Lameness Locator.

And then I looked it up too, but I'm skeptical, which is why I'd like to get my hands on one to see if it can actually do what they say it can do.

[Tsavo]

Which step of the baseline determination are you skeptical about and why?

[kande50]

Which step of the baseline determination are you skeptical about and why?

I'm skeptical that they can come up with a baseline that they can then use to detect even very slight lamenesses. Not that the vets would care, because they'll just detect lameness, treat it, and then try to convince you that 1) the treatment will fix it eventually, 2) it is fixed, or 3) it's unfixable.

[Tsavo]

I'm skeptical that they can come up with a baseline that they can then use to detect even very slight lamenesses.

So you just have this "feeling" or is it based on an actual identifiable step in the baseline determination procedure that you think is not robust/defensible?

I mean it sounds like people who are skeptical of evolution just because they have a "vibe" that it seems incredible.

[kande50]

I don't see how it's possible to establish a baseline based on data from multiple horses and then use that baseline to sort out deviations that are of the same magnitude of, or less than, the ones included in the baseline.

IOW, how would they be able to diagnose lameness in a club footed horse, or any horse who was particularly one sided, or a gaited horse, or any horse whose baseline would fall outside the parameters of the baseline they're using?

I could see how it might be possible if they were looking at significant lamenesses, but if that was the case there would be no need for a lameness locator.

[musical comedy]

I could see how it might be possible if they were looking at significant lamenesses, but if that was the case there would be no need for a lameness locator.

I think they are looking at lameness that is obvious, not that it is 'signficant'. It it wasn't obvious or felt when riding, why would someone have a vet look at the horse? In other words, I don't think this is a tool to use just to see if a horse is showing the tinest bit of nqr. If it is, then I think most horses would show something. How many horses do you think move 100% perfect? From the little I read on this gadget, it is used in conjunction with nerve blocks, flexions, etc.

I was surprised at the number of really respected vets that his this locator. It must be helpful. I am also suprised that no vets in my area have it, because this is a horse mecca with the USET close by and 3 surgical clinics.

[Tsavo]

I don't see how it's possible to establish a baseline based on data from multiple horses and then use that baseline to sort out deviations that are of the same magnitude of, or less than, the ones included in the baseline.

Okay so you are using an argument from personal incredulity as opposed to a factually-based doubt about some technical aspect of the baseline determination method. Do I have that right?

[Tsavo]

I could see how it might be possible if they were looking at significant lamenesses, but if that was the case there would be no need for a lameness locator.

I think they are looking at lameness that is obvious, not that it is 'signficant'. It it wasn't obvious or felt when riding, why would someone have a vet look at the horse? In other words, I don't think this is a tool to use just to see if a horse is showing the tinest bit of nqr. If it is, then I think most horses would show something. How many horses do you think move 100% perfect? From the little I read on this gadget, it is used in conjunction with nerve blocks, flexions, etc.

I was surprised at the number of really respected vets that his this locator. It must be helpful. I am also suprised that no vets in my area have it, because this is a horse mecca with the USET close by and 3 surgical clinics.

If the king of skepticism Dr. Ramey in completely on board then I think everyone else will eventually jump on board.

I have been thinking about why they strictly limit sales to vets and will not sell to people who could test out so to speak IN THEIR SLEEP on the theory and operation (like anyone with a Masters or better in a hard science but also others). I think it is because it would be used to show most lameness treatments do not work as advertised. Supplements and injections are a bazillion dollar industry but the literature does not contain any glowing endorsement of their efficacy. If there were LLs out on the landscape, I think it would eventually undermine not just the woo-woo treatments but most of the vet treatments for certain conditions. It might also help guide how to make some treatments more effective also.

I lunged my horse yesterday and today. Both days he is sound at first trot on the left hind but canter concerns him going right (striking off on the left hind). The downward transition is problematic... he will hang the leg and might even switch before trot. Then after the canter, he is not sound on that hind. So canter tweaks him.

I am getting the leg worked up next week. Anyone care to guess what the condition might be?

[kande50]

Okay so you are using an argument from personal incredulity as opposed to a factually-based doubt about some technical aspect of the baseline determination method. Do I have that right?

Without the device and the manual I have no facts, so can't make factually based statements so can't argue anything. What I said was that I want one, or want access to one, so that I can see how it works.

[kande50]

I have been thinking about why they strictly limit sales to vets and will not sell to people who could test out so to speak IN THEIR SLEEP on the theory and operation (like anyone with a Masters or better in a hard science but also others). I think it is because it would be used to show most lameness treatments do not work as advertised.

Or, that the lameness locator doesn't work as advertised, so is just another woo woo device that unscrupulous vets can use to help them extract money from clients?

[kande50]

The downward transition is problematic... he will hang the leg and might even switch before trot. Then after the canter, he is not sound on that hind. So canter tweaks him.

Another small piece of anecdotal evidence. Many years ago I had a TB/QH mare I raised. I started her as a 3 year old and by the time she was 5 she could do hunter changes, and was good at them. Then when she was 5 she had an accident with a wheelbarrow and cut the front of her left hind cannon. It was a V-shaped 2 inch cut that the vet stitched up, and it healed without complications. Don't know if the tendon was damaged or if it was a scarring problem, but she was never able to do a left to right flying change again. And because I was young and dumb I never made the connection, so kept trying to get the change, and she never could do it. The vet finally explained to me that she probably couldn't use that hind leg the way she could before, which was a bit of a revelation to me because I couldn't see any difference. If I could go back I might be able to see it now, but couldn't then.

So IDK what's going on with your horse, but am looking forward to the next report because the whole saga is so interesting.

[Tsavo]

Okay so you are using an argument from personal incredulity as opposed to a factually-based doubt about some technical aspect of the baseline determination method. Do I have that right?

Without the device and the manual I have no facts, so can't make factually based statements so can't argue anything. What I said was that I want one, or want access to one, so that I can see how it works.

Having one isn't gong to help you at all. You don't have the years of working with it nor the thousands of horses they measured. You are not going to be able to re-trace their steps in establishing the baseline for yourself to "check" their work. Understanding the idea behind it and the method they used to prove it out are published. The use of the instrument is fully explained in papers and video. The hardware and the software are what they are. That is all you should need.

[musical comedy]

I am getting the leg worked up next week. Anyone care to guess what the condition might be?

Generally a lame hind leg is easy to diagnose with flexions and blocks. It's usually a hock or stifle and in your case I'm betting on stifle since hock injections didn't work. Could be bone or soft tissue.

I hope you don't have a case like my friend. She acquired a 'free' horse (long story but this is a well bred 8 year old). According to the story, the horse got cast once and was wonky on one hind after that. With rest, it mostly resolved and he was w/t/c looking good when she agreed to take him. After a few months, he is off again. Initially, like Tsavo's horse, the thought he was off in the front. Vet came and said it is the hind causing the front problem; the same hind that was the problem from the start.

Vet did a bunch of diagnostics and got to the point that he blocked the whole damn hind leg. The horse was still lame in that leg. So, the problem is higher up they think. She was thinking of getting a bone scan, but changed her mind. She's getting a different vet to get a second opinion. She thinks it might be some kind of nerve impingment somewhere.

[Tsavo]

Wow that is quite the saga MC! It certainly could be an injury but is probably arthritis.

I will be surprised if it is stifle (other than injury) given his ability to work on the hill. The stifle was visibly wonky all of a sudden 10 days ago. It is not a chronic thing.

[Ryeissa]

Chiropractic is very good for treating hind end stuff, particularly stifles, in conjunction with other therapies. I've seen a lot of personal success.

Also head shaking syndrome but that's not relevant

[khall]

Rye Tsavo does not believe in chiro or acupuncture. Thinks it's all woo woo and a waste of money along with injections, joint supplements.

[musical comedy]

I will be surprised if it is stifle (other than injury) given his ability to work on the hill. The stifle was visibly wonky all of a sudden 10 days ago. It is not a chronic thing.

Did it occur to you that the hill work might be causing your problem?

[Tsavo]

Rye Tsavo does not believe in chiro or acupuncture. Thinks it's all woo woo and a waste of money along with injections, joint supplements.

I don't "believe" or "disbelieve". I ACCEPT or DON'T ACCEPT based on the evidence case.

In re chiro, because it is based on an imaginary concept (chiro subluxations of the spine), it has been definitely disproven. In humans, it has only been shown to help with lower back pain but it works no better than other treatment modalities. So it is likely using some other modality under the name of chiro.

That is not to say what vets are calling chiro is not helpful. It is just what is helpful is not chiro sensu stricto.

Is chiro a science?

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/scienc ... ropractic/

[Tsavo]

I will be surprised if it is stifle (other than injury) given his ability to work on the hill. The stifle was visibly wonky all of a sudden 10 days ago. It is not a chronic thing.

Did it occur to you that the hill work might be causing your problem?

I do some hill work to avoid stifle problems. I am afraid if I don't he will have stifle problems. I don't go overboard.

[Tsavo]

In re acupuncture, as with chiro, I think there are one or two conditions where it has been shown to help but again is not better than other treatment modalities.

The point with acupuncture and chiro in humans is that the number of things that those two things COMBINED has been shown to help can be counted on one hand and it is no better than other treatments. In re chiro, it has been proven dispositively that chiro subluxations are imaginary and that is the basis.

If that is the case with humans then it is not likely different for horses.

[Tsavo]

Chiropractic is very good for treating hind end stuff, particularly stifles, in conjunction with other therapies. I've seen a lot of personal success.

Also head shaking syndrome but that's not relevant

My horse has a left hind issue a few months ago. I rested him and he came back sound until last week. Had I gotten him a chiro treatment it would have been counted as evidence that chiro works. Do you see the problem?

ETA: He came back sound and we progressed to counter canter and I declared the rehab was over. That's how much rest cured my horse in that case. Had I had chiro this would have been front page news in the Woo-Woo Times. And it would have been wrong.

[Tsavo]

I have been thinking about why they strictly limit sales to vets and will not sell to people who could test out so to speak IN THEIR SLEEP on the theory and operation (like anyone with a Masters or better in a hard science but also others). I think it is because it would be used to show most lameness treatments do not work as advertised.

Or, that the lameness locator doesn't work as advertised, so is just another woo woo device that unscrupulous vets can use to help them extract money from clients?

It is very easy to show it works as advertised. I think you should read up on it.

[Tsavo]

Here is a blog post that instantiates how much material has to be mastered to understand the readings. I am not saying it is easy to interpret out of the box. Lots of training is involved. You would have to be on the look out for contralateral lameness as one example of how it is not straightforward. But there are x number of situations and many can be sorted out with the LL and blocking. So if lay people had it they would need a vet there to block one or more legs if necessary.

https://lameness-locator.blogspot.com/2 ... lunge.html

[kande50]

https://lameness-locator.blogspot.com/2 ... lunge.html

Thank you for finding that, because it makes a lot more sense to me now.

[Ryeissa]

.

[khall]

Rye don't bother. Tsavo is firm in her convictions, which is her prerogative. I just feel that if there is modalities out there to help my horse to keep working and progressing I am willing to put the $ out for them. From supplements, to chiro/acupuncture, to adequan and sometimes including joint injections when indicated. I did so with Rip a few years ago with his stifles. For some reason he got sore in his stifles and had some effusion. They were clean of OCD etc, just sore. My fabulous vet (who interned at Rood and Riddle) injected both stifles and Rip has been fine since. Have not had to repeat them.

[Tsavo]

Okay Rye so presumably you know about the issue of chiro subluxations being shown to be imaginary. Given that, how do you avoid concluding that chiro sits on a throne of lies?

Also, chiro is about the spine. How can messing with a stifle qualify as "chiro"?

Honest vets admit then can't move bones on the hind end of horses. What exactly did they do to your horse's stifle that you feel helped and how did you sort that out from rest?

[Tsavo]

Vet coming Thursday morning. BO found an exit hole on the RF so I think she made the right call about abscess there. But he is still limping. I am having the farrier assess it. He is beyond capable to do an abscess. But the BO brought up an issue... if my horse is limping at walk over the abscess, how is the vet going to assess a lameness on the hind? I may have to push the vet assessment off until the abscess or whatever is healed.

Still hoping to hear from Rye on those questions.

[Tsavo]

Nope... vet said if the hole at at he coronary band then okay but because the hole is on the bottom he doesn't want the farrier dealing with it. I think I am looking at two visits... one for the abscess and one down the road for the LH lameness. Maybe by then it will be resolved like last time. There is NFW that LH can be assessed on a horse limping up front at walk from an abscess except maybe with a LL.