Thoughts on the foundational vs the ideal

[musical comedy]

What do you guys actually mean by lightness anyways? No contact? A light pull? Weight of the bit?

We (the posters) are all not on the same page about some things Rye. Not all of us have the same goals of what we want to achieve with our horses. Not all us subscribe to the same kind of training. What some of us think is awesome, some thing is borderline harsh.

I agree with all you've written in the above post. My memory is fuzzy on this, but a while back you put up a video clip of your horse walking. It looked good, and what I'm trying to get right now.

Even if one does not show, I think it is a good idea to practice test movements and use them as a guide in daily training. Starting at about 2nd level (and maybe 1st since I haven't read those tests), when you go from walk to trot, the connection and energy you have in the walk is vital to get a good up transition while maintaining throughness. You can't be walking along on a longer or unconnected rein and then expect to do a good up transition into trot or canter. When you go from extended walk or even free walk back to collected walk or medium walk, the horse has to accept the shortening of the reins, gather himself up, and continue to walk with energy and suppleness into the bridle. This is what I'm working on now.

[exvet]

I agree, but I'll add that contact is so variable between horses. I often have a very firm contact with Annabelle. If I didn't, she would just go along strung out like the western pleasure horse her daddy's genetics bestowed up on her. It seems like there is a lot of conflation of firm contact, backward hand and riding BTV going towards rollkur. Some horses need firm contact and it can be done with a forward hand, keeping the horse IFV. OTOH, with Susan's Kyra, contact is much lighter; that is partly because she is more advanced, but I think much of it is her 1/2 Andalusian breeding. I haven't ridden other Andalusians, but rode a lot of Arabians when I was a teen, and looking back, can't imagine any of them needing a heavy contact to accomplish anything productive.

Still working on IFOTLY, so I'll get back to you on that, but have had some lightbulb moments lately about its importance.

I haven't had time to read all of the posts so I apologize if I'm repeating what others have already said. I completely agree that contact is variable between horses; but, I'm not sure it's a 'breed' thing in regards to trends of those that are lighter vs. those who are not. Among my welsh cobs I have those who prefer to be ridden with a lighter hand and still have a true connection and those who are a bit heavier though not diving onto my hands. Both 'types' eventually learned to carrier themselves to the degree appropriate with their level of training. Along the training journey they, like all others of a variety of breeds I've owned, have teetered back and forth depending on where they were with their understanding, strength and ability along with where I was with my riding/ability. My Arabians when there was a true connection seemed to create more weight in my hand than the majority of my welsh cobs. I am one who tends to like more in my hand (5 or so on a scale of 1-10) because those that have to be ridden with silk ribbons, for me, are more of a challenge if they are the type to evade the bit. Of course light and truly through is nice/lovely and for fleeting moments my horses/cobs/ponies and I have achieved it but it's always a test isn't it? You want light but you have best be sure that 'lightness' still comes with a horse that is through and can be placed wherever you want/need it within the next stride. If you can't do that then, that lightness is likely not the true connection that we are taught to seek. It doesn't matter if that 'lightness' is the equivalent of an ounce of weight or pounds of weight.

[khall]

Riding with a drape in the reins is a test IMO, can be just a stride or 2 like Uberstreiken or especially for piaffe work "held by the seat" in piaffe. But it is a test of the training, contact is needing for that training. Contact varies for many reasons.

I like to ride one handed, I like to ride one handed in lateral work, it is a test of my communication and quality of the work. Can put a whole new spin on things and be very revealing.

Riding bridle less is a test (not one I have taken yet!) but is very difficult to do with correct biomechanics because the contact/reins are for refinement, eventually.

Riding on the curb with one hand is a test (got to see SRS do this in 2005 when they were in US).

We all use the reins and bit/bridle for most of our training. I do know some who use the caveson for their work, which is old classical Steinbrecht I believe. We all should be testing our training in some ways, gives us feedback.

[Ryeissa]

What do you guys actually mean by lightness anyways? No contact? A light pull? Weight of the bit?

We (the posters) are all not on the same page about some things Rye. Not all of us have the same goals of what we want to achieve with our horses. Not all us subscribe to the same kind of training. What some of us think is awesome, some thing is borderline harsh.

I agree with all you've written in the above post. My memory is fuzzy on this, but a while back you put up a video clip of your horse walking. It looked good, and what I'm trying to get right now.

Even if one does not show, I think it is a good idea to practice test movements and use them as a guide in daily training. Starting at about 2nd level (and maybe 1st since I haven't read those tests), when you go from walk to trot, the connection and energy you have in the walk is vital to get a good up transition while maintaining throughness. You can't be walking along on a longer or unconnected rein and then expect to do a good up transition into trot or canter. When you go from extended walk or even free walk back to collected walk or medium walk, the horse has to accept the shortening of the reins, gather himself up, and continue to walk with energy and suppleness into the bridle. This is what I'm working on now.

thanks

Yes, I agree completely with things you wrote. We have a very diverse group here, and it can cause things to deviate and loose focus. I am a "stickler" for definitions for this reason, it creates a good base in which to discuss things. But I have learned online that we can't always get what we want....

[Ryeissa]

We all use the reins and bit/bridle for most of our training. I do know some who use the caveson for their work, which is old classical Steinbrecht I believe. We all should be testing our training in some ways, gives us feedback.

I think that for me, I test the contact the whole ride. I'm always asking "is this good?"

My horse is hellish when I take the reins in one hand, and does that mean I'm not training him well? I don't think so, our conversation happens on two reins and that is what he is used to. One handed is different and for this horse he would need me to break it down. He holds a lot of tension in his neck where i support him with both reins. That is where his block is.

However, Its something to think about. I test my contact with frequent long and low sessions to see if he really stays mobile at the end of the rein and doesn't speed up.

One thing I have been playing with is W/C/W on the longe (no side reins just halter)- he takes a beautiful up transition but it's intersting to see how they position the body and head with out the bit and reins. Its not how I "train" the transition, but it's fun to see what he does left to his own devices.
That said, he has been doing these W/C/W for 4-5 yrs now so he knows what i am asking. So I suppose this is a variation of the same idea?

[Tsavo]

What do you mean by hellish when you put the reins in one hand? My horse does not seem to notice at first when I do that.

[khall]

Rye riding one handed gives you information, we train though with 2 reins. I like to use the info from the tests to help with the training process. I too use the extend the reins/extend the neck as a test. Can the horse stay with me on my seat with the longer reins, does he reach out and down, can I slow the trot while riding with the longer reins, can I do a T-W transition while riding with the longer reins, can I increase the stride length/energy while riding with the longer reins etc. Again a test of training and how the horse is responding to that training. This gives you information to use as you train.

Once a horse gets to FEI levels the rider should be able to ride with knuckles together (wonder how often that happens, but we do see some in the Freestyle ride one handed). The rein aids should be very subtle by that time, that progression of training and refining.

To go back to foundational vs ideal, for me it is a progression from fairly crude aids (anyone who has ridden a very green horse knows how crude those aids can be!!) to more and more subtle and refined aids. When we feel a lack of response whether to the driving aid or the rein aids, sometimes we have to go back to those cruder moments for emphasis, but always always test with the more refined/subtle aids. That is the training process.

[StraightForward]

I don't know if Susan ever rides with one hand, but I found it very interesting that Kyra instantly goes into a stretch when I switch to one hand, and often a better stretch than I can get riding 2-handed.

[Ryeissa]

What do you mean by hellish when you put the reins in one hand? My horse does not seem to notice at first when I do that.

My horse goes above the bit, I can do it at a stretching trot with no issues

[Tsavo]

What do you mean by hellish when you put the reins in one hand? My horse does not seem to notice at first when I do that.

My horse goes above the bit, I can do it at a stretching trot with no issues

That shouldn't happen if you change nothing else. If you figure out what you changed it won't happen.

[musical comedy]

What do you mean by hellish when you put the reins in one hand? My horse does not seem to notice at first when I do that.

My horse goes above the bit, I can do it at a stretching trot with no issues

That shouldn't happen if you change nothing else. If you figure out what you changed it won't happen.

It could be a straightness and/or throughness issue. Because...

Once a horse gets to FEI levels the rider should be able to ride with knuckles together

When you are able to ride with your knuckles together, you have control of both sides of the neck connected to the shoulders. Ideal. The more wide the hands, the more crooked the horse 'can' be. When you put your reins in one hand it likely will also bring both reins again the neck. If one has been riding with a weak outside rein, and the horse now all of a sudden has contact there and can't escape it, he may go above the bit if there is a throughness issue. I am not saying this is the case with Rye, but just one reason it may happen.

Tsavo, I'm pretty sure I remember reading that you ride with your hands close together. I think Demi does too. However, to try and do so on a horse that is not far enough along, one might meet with some resistance which could manifest itself in various ways. When I can get my hands low and close together, it's when everything feels super.

[Tsavo]

MC yes I see your point. My hands come together and sometimes touch as my horse comes straight and sits in position. I wish that was all the time but it isn't. I am just grateful my hands are a pretty good feedback on straightness.

The limit on this is when one of my instructors was trying to straighten a really crooked horse, her hands were very askew. I guess even a GP rider probably can't ride one-handed on a crooked horse.

[Ryeissa]

What do you mean by hellish when you put the reins in one hand? My horse does not seem to notice at first when I do that.

My horse goes above the bit, I can do it at a stretching trot with no issues

That shouldn't happen if you change nothing else. If you figure out what you changed it won't happen.

It is worse at the halt and walk, and fine in trot and canter, so I think it's just lack of impulsion at the slower gaits. at any rate, I don't need to invest in this too much since the work is overall of very good quality. I'd be more worried if the contact was not good, but if there is one thing I can do, its put the horse on bit.

[Ryeissa]

I am not saying this is the case with Rye, but just one reason it may happen

I have a very straight horse and good outside rein connection, but its good to consider for sure! I ride with my hands normal width apart.

[Tsavo]

My horse goes above the bit, I can do it at a stretching trot with no issues

That shouldn't happen if you change nothing else. If you figure out what you changed it won't happen.

It is worse at the halt and walk, and fine in trot and canter, so I think it's just lack of impulsion at the slower gaits. at any rate, I don't need to invest in this too much since the work is overall of very good quality. I'd be more worried if the contact was not good, but if there is one thing I can do, its put the horse on bit.

Then I think you shouldn't worry about it. It sounds like a case of, "Doctor, doctor, it hurts when I do this" and the doctor say don't do that. LOL

This reminds me of one instructor I had who it seemed to me was giving me little tests that weren't really that diagnostic or that there were other things I could do to develop the skills that those test showed me to be lacking. I suspected some of the things were things an upper level rider could not do either without practice but I can't prove it. I can't remember any examples but I do remember asking at least a few times about the value of doing something or another than that I should be doing something to correct it and not just reveal it.

[piedmontfields]

To me, a horse who cannot easily do quite a lot of the work while ridden with one hand and the reins bridged is simply a greener horse.

[Tsavo]

The things that my instructor would have me do were along the lines of what Savoie did to that fourth level rider asking them to do something they never practiced... T/C/T in SF down the centerline. Yes a fourth level horse should be able to do that in its sleep and with a little practice, any fourth level rider can get that in one session. But unless they specifically practiced it, they are going to probably fail at first. If taken wrong it can just be a "gotcha". I began to believe my instructor was doing this with me for some reason. I can't prove it but I note others have a similar opinion of this instructor but not for that reason. It is for other reasons with which I concur also.

Finding a good instructor is like making money... you have to have money to make money (quickly). In riding, you have to know the work before you are taught it to know when you are wasting time and money.

[Ryeissa]

To me, a horse who cannot easily do quite a lot of the work while ridden with one hand and the reins bridged is simply a greener horse.

I think bridging the reins and riding one handed are completely different functionally.

[Rosie B]

Agree - riding with one hand is primarily a test; while bridging the reins helps keep a consistent and even contact with both reins. It can also serve as a test.

Piedmont - I have never ridden for an extended period of time with the reins in one hand because although I can do it momentarily or for a few strides, I don't find that it actually helps to improve anything, and in my rides I'm aiming to make things better. So I treat it as a test. Based on your post above, it sounds like you ride a fair bit with the reins in one hand, or at least school movements that way. What's your motivation for doing that?

As far as bridging the reins go, I totally agree. You should be able to ride almost everything you're schooling with the reins bridged with no impact to quality.

But if your horse pops up if you switch both reins to one hand, you're either doing something to disrupt him or her in the switch, or he/she is not truly confirmed in the contact.

[kande50]

MC yes I see your point. My hands come together and sometimes touch as my horse comes straight and sits in position. I wish that was all the time but it isn't. I am just grateful my hands are a pretty good feedback on straightness.

The limit on this is when one of my instructors was trying to straighten a really crooked horse, her hands were very askew. I guess even a GP rider probably can't ride one-handed on a crooked horse.

It may depend on the horse/contact, as I was riding my mule in the ring recently because I wanted to record his w-c transitions, and found myself holding my hands together (touching), which almost never happens. My hands normally spend most of their time raised and apart, but for some reason they wanted to be together when I was riding my mule. I feel like it had a lot more to do with him being heavy on the bit and feeling like he was diving down than with straightness though, because I'm much more likely to lift and widen my hands when I'm trying to straighten.

When my hands go askew it's because I'm trying for more clarity, because it's obvious that my horse doesn't understand what I'm trying to get across and I think clearer cues might help. The intention isn't to make it my default hand position, but to refine it as the response becomes more fluent.

[Ryeissa]

But if your horse pops up if you switch both reins to one hand, you're either doing something to disrupt him or her in the switch, or he/she is not truly confirmed in the contact.

eh, yeah, but all horses need to keep being refreshed in the contact every step. I have never been on a horse that is always on contact where I can just say "ok, they know contact, time to do other things".

So a loss of balance doesn't bother me. Its just how I respond to it as a rider to show the horse how to get back the balance. How much reminder the horse needs varies of course, a green horse may take a lot longer and have a more severe loss of balance. I've never had super talented horses or been in full time prof training, I am sure they don't have this issue as much.

my horse is super sensitive, so he would probably notice this much more, even though he is trained very very well. Everything has the potential to upset the apple cart- it's my job to minimize it. my margin for error is razor thin and I often miss it as a rider.

since we ride two handed, I am just not sure I care that much about one handed work. It just isn't something my trainers have ever emphasized. That said, i do a LOT of stretching and testing of the contact in other ways, a ton of in hand work, jumping, etc. I just resent the idea that things are automatically wrong if it's not perfect.

[kande50]

I just resent the idea that things are automatically wrong if it's not perfect.

Why, as it seems like that would be a given?

[Rosie B]

Rye - Can you elaborate on what you mean by this?

all horses need to keep being refreshed in the contact every step

In total honesty the only time I ride one handed on contact is when I either have to push up my glasses, fix my bra strap, or swat a fly.

[piedmontfields]

In total honesty the only time I ride one handed on contact is when I either have to push up my glasses, fix my bra strap, or swat a fly.

Ha! This is exactly why I do it. It is buggy and sweaty here in E TN, so I probably get to practice this a lot I am also more crippled in my right hand, so when I have an achey day, it is a relief from pain to ride one-handed.

However, I've also found it helpful whenever I think my hands are too busy---it is a quick way to be very quiet in the contact for me. The proof that this is useful for me sometimes is that my mare takes a more positive, steadier contact and her hind comes through better.

I do think riding one handed is an easy test of the circle of the aids---it can show you very quickly if your seat/legs are not on the job (and the reins are doing too much).

BTW--I'm not sure that I'm using the term "bridging the reins" correctly here. I mean, it is easy to ride one-handed and still indicate flexion with the reins (I do turn my hand down from normal position on the reins when I ride one handed--that probably isn't correct ).

[Ryeissa]

Rye - Can you elaborate on what you mean by this?

all horses need to keep being refreshed in the contact every step

Contact is dynamic, one has to always manage the tempo, straightness, connection. I feel like the horse always needs assistance to maintain these basic qualities. I can't say warm up and then say oh contact is good, let's do half pass. I have to keep asking "is he in front of my leg?" Can I take flexion smoothly or do I meet jaw resistance? is the horse bulging the shoulders or throwing in haunches? Does the horse take the reins forward?

I feel like horses need a lot of help. Its not easy to be off the forehand, straight, and working over the back.

I ask these the whole ride, but my horse WILL change these things- as I said, he is very very mobile, sensitive and he WILL rearrange his body. However, this is less of a deviation now that we are much more consistent- the tempo might play between say a 4-6 on a 1-10 scale where it used to progress to actual rushing and flinging then jamming down to say a 2. (deviation of say 3-8).

Its all layers of the onion, the onion basics don't change as the work progresses. this is just how I ride, it depends on your horse and the needs of your situation, and I am riding more mid levels on a very very eager hot horse.

ETA: contact to me plays into the whole horse, most often if my horse is bracing on the reins it's because he is not loading the hind end - most likely because of crookedness, which is exacerbated by rushing over tempo. Sometimes it really is a bit/rein issue, but not most of the time. that is why I am discussing the whole program.

[demi]

As Piedmont commented, I also think that one handed is a quick way to be very quiet in the contact. It also shows me if I am riding from my seat. Sometimes I get into more hand less seat and I don’t even notice that I am doing it. I want my horse to be working from and paying attention to my seat. This is a work in progress and onehanded is a good way of seeing where we are in that progression.

[musical comedy]

eh, yeah, but all horses need to keep being refreshed in the contact every step. I have never been on a horse that is always on contact where I can just say "ok, they know contact, time to do other things".

Me neither. I ride half-halt to half-halt. No coasting.

My horse is super sensitive, so he would probably notice this much more, even though he is trained very very well. Everything has the potential to upset the apple cart- it's my job to minimize it. my margin for error is razor thin and I often miss it as a rider.

I can't say if my horse is 'super' sensitive, but she is more so than any other horse I've ridden in dressage. Probably my hunter Tb's were super sensitive, but I rode them differently than a dressage horse. It's that the super sensitive horses react very easily to any change (such as switching from 2 hands to one). I like that comment about margin for error being razon thin. I am overdoing everything my trainer says, because I am so used to riding bigger more phlegmatic horses.

Since we ride two handed, I am just not sure I care that much about one handed work. It just isn't something my trainers have ever emphasized. That said, i do a LOT of stretching and testing of the contact in other ways, a ton of in hand work, jumping, etc. I just resent the idea that things are automatically wrong if it's not perfect.

My thinking too. Honestly, I'm not looking for ways to make riding harder for myself (bridleless, one handed, bareback, etc.) It's hard enough as it is.

As far as 'testing' oneself, imo the best way is just to ride a test. It doesn't have to be at a show. Do it at home.

[Rosie B]

Just throwing this into the mix... yesterday I tried that move from third level where you completely release the reins in canter for 3 or so strides, and surprisingly Bliss stayed nicely together. As a side note, apparently I am the headless horseman (and should probably clean my camera lens).

I am glad I asked for clarification Rye - it sounded like you were saying that you have to do stuff with the contact every stride, and I was going to disagree with you on that. There are moments where everything feels great and I literally have to do nothing but sit there and steer/direct the movement. Those are the moments I strive for.

Just saw MC's comment about coasting. I don't regard that as coasting. I look at it as keeping the noise/demands to an absolute minimum while the horse is going very nicely.

[musical comedy]

There are moments where everything feels great and I literally have to do nothing but sit there and steer/direct the movement. Those are the moments I strive for.

Just saw MC's comment about coasting. I don't regard that as coasting. I look at it as keeping the noise/demands to an absolute minimum while the horse is going very nicely.

That's a lovely , correct, 3rd level release Rosie. I'll bet you think you are doing nothing but sitting and steering, but you are unconciously rebalancing. I've written here before that I can't tell you what my body parts, etc. are doing during riding because everything is automatic.

I don't watch many videos, but the other day I watched one of Jeremy's more recent ones on Augie. It was beautiful work, but I could see he was halt-halting quite hard during the canter work. These top riders are very good at concealing just how much effort they are putting into the ride.

I don't think you are doing 'nothing' Rosie. I am doing 'something' even in my stretchy walk cool down.

[Ryeissa]

Agree MC- there is a good seat use there, that is partly what I mean by checking in- this includes me- Am I staying balanced so things like this release are possible?
there is a lot going on to look like there is nothing going on!

[Ryeissa]

As Piedmont commented, I also think that one handed is a quick way to be very quiet in the contact. It also shows me if I am riding from my seat. Sometimes I get into more hand less seat and I don’t even notice that I am doing it. I want my horse to be working from and paying attention to my seat. This is a work in progress and onehanded is a good way of seeing where we are in that progression.

yeah, I get the same results from stretching. Just this weekend we did HP/LY/SI series on a medium stretching rein in my lesson to test the use of the seat. this is just schooling- we did this like one time out of 10, so not a regular thing.

I expect to get a halt trans from a stretching trot in a few strides. That is how I test this, vs one handed

[Rosie B]

Hah. You know you're probably right MC. And thanks.

There's a lot of stuff that is running on autopilot these days with regard to my riding and I don't always know what they are.

[exvet]

Just saw MC's comment about coasting. I don't regard that as coasting. I look at it as keeping the noise/demands to an absolute minimum while the horse is going very nicely.

This is how I took your comments to mean. In other words there is a fine line between being in tune and maintaining your feel so that you can respond to changes in the conversation versus coasting. The horse should be allowed to respond and provided feedback as appropriate including brief moments of silence as a reward but not nagged. While it is unusual to be able to go several strides without having to provide some feedback through the contact, I thought one of the goals we strive for is to listen quietly and be able to respond or 'test' the listening of your partner. This is not coasting. If you get the horse to a point which is 'good' and then tune yourself out to all that is going on because you think your job is over.....that is coasting. I think those with good feel and timing understand that the conversation is really a constant without there being a lot of overt activity (noise, nagging, call it what you like) in seat, legs or hands.

Can you tell, I'm getting ready for a lesson in the next hour? LOL, in my last lesson my instructor informed me that I need to not allow my 4 year old to coast through the training level test. I could easily do that and score mostly 6's and 7's because he's that far along and balanced. However, I need to maintain and develop and train for the future and ride for all 8's. This requires a wee bit more understanding and 'demanding' that he ride/move with more power, purpose and throughness and thus no coasting......For me to do this I have to think and feel each stride with a different outlook. I've been happy with just pleasant, steady, coming over the back into the hand and seeking contact. Now the conversation needs to be 'look at me' each step/stride with positive tension over the top line and P-O-W-E-R. I think there will be lots of testing today (I"m going to be seeing the edge of that envelope - you have to go over a couple of times to be able to push right to the edge and stay there); but, that will be the overall focus for the lesson today....

[khall]

This is how I break down the different tests (I like testing myself and the horses I ride/work, it gives me information in my training)

One handed riding is about the refinement of the aids, the subtle use of mostly seat but also how refined the rein aids are. If I can ride one handed WTC and in lateral work etc I know my aids are in tune and my horse is tuned in well to me. Some horses are much easier to do this with (the more sensitive ones of which Rip is not) than others. My filly's dam was easy peasy to ride one handed, I feel like I have won the Olympics if I can WTC one handed on Rip! Trying out an OTTB g for a friend I was able to ride him one handed because of his good balance and sensitivity.

Bridging the reins really quiets the rein aids and like demi says about riding one handed, forces us to focus more on the seat and less on the reins. A little more difficult to get the refinement of the rein aids as in riding one handed but still very valuable in my book more for the greener horses. Keeps the aids more "put together". Western riders call it riding in the box (they mentally form a box that the hands must stay in).

Riding bridle less is not about refinement but about harmony and sensitivity between horse and rider. We lose some of the refinement because there is no reins for that refinement, but it shows us how the relationship between horse and rider is. Not something I have ever done with Rip and I have a lot of work to do to ever get to that point. Don't know if I ever will with him. Hard to do with good biomechanics. I think Karen R is a master at this.

Riding with one hand curb only IMO very similar to riding one handed but requires even more refinement and sensitivity by the rider and exceptional training on the horse. Was a highlight to me watching SRS in 2005 in Atlanta.

I think along these lines (always testing) when I work in hand or lunge. Aids are pretty crude when we start training but as training progresses and horses get stronger the aids become more refined.

Was working with my boarder with her mare, she has most of lateral work in hand, rider is learning aids for lateral exercises US now. Put her on the mare, no reins, me with lead line on mare. Had rider do SI, renvere etc with no reins just seat to show the seat aids are the MOST important aids, reins are for refining, tweaking. Mare had no trouble what so ever doing the different lateral exercises from seat alone. This from a moose of a horse who did not have this training on her before she came here, this is just from doing in hand work.

[musical comedy]

Western riders ride with one hand. They can do various lateral work, spins, stops, etc. My point is just because someone can ride with one hand and 'get by' does not mean the work is good. Before I get slammed, I'm not saying anyone here that is riding one-handed is merely 'getting by'. But, you may not be doing the good work you think. Unless your work is being judged by a good trainer or judge at a show, you really might not know.

Now the conversation needs to be 'look at me' each step/stride with positive tension over the top line and P-O-W-E-R.

Yes, this is what I am for. If one can do the one handed riding getting this, then I admire you. The more Power you are working with, the better the riding generally has to be.

Another thing is that one can be merely 'riding a pattern' and not doing correct movements. We see it all the time in 2nd level with people doing week
shoulder-ins with no engagement and bend and in 3rd level with doing wimpy half passes with no bend.

[piedmontfields]

Western riders ride with one hand. They can do various lateral work, spins, stops, etc. My point is just because someone can ride with one hand and 'get by' does not mean the work is good. Before I get slammed, I'm not saying anyone here that is riding one-handed is merely 'getting by'. But, you may not be doing the good work you think. Unless your work is being judged by a good trainer or judge at a show, you really might not know.

Unlike some posters on this board, I actually have a pretty low opinion of my riding skills. I also consider anything below the FEI levels to be "lower level."

Given your comment MC, it is interesting to me that I have had multiple experienced FEI level trainers/riders guide me into using one-handed riding as a way to understand proper connection and to address that issue when needed. They have also had me use the technique while doing various exercises (especially transitions) as a way to clarify the job of the seat vs. the reins. They did not blow smoke up my #$% and tell me the work is ready for a killer show performance when we worked through these exercises, but they did affirm that significant improvement happened and I found it helpful for my understanding of correct feelings. So, I took it to mean that this is just another tool we can use to improve our riding/training. That is why highly skilled eyes on the ground is so useful.

[Ryeissa]

Western riders ride with one hand. They can do various lateral work, spins, stops, etc. My point is just because someone can ride with one hand and 'get by' does not mean the work is good. Before I get slammed, I'm not saying anyone here that is riding one-handed is merely 'getting by'. But, you may not be doing the good work you think. Unless your work is being judged by a good trainer or judge at a show, you really might not know.

Unlike some posters on this board, I actually have a pretty low opinion of my riding skills. I also consider anything below the FEI levels to be "lower level."

Given your comment MC, it is interesting to me that I have had multiple experienced FEI level trainers/riders guide me into using one-handed riding as a way to understand proper connection and to address that issue when needed. They have also had me use the technique while doing various exercises (especially transitions) as a way to clarify the job of the seat vs. the reins. They did not blow smoke up my #$% and tell me the work is ready for a killer show performance when we worked through these exercises, but they did affirm that significant improvement happened and I found it helpful for my understanding of correct feelings. So, I took it to mean that this is just another tool we can use to improve our riding/training. That is why highly skilled eyes on the ground is so useful.

I call things between 1-3rd mid levels, but that is my own language.

who has a high opinion of themselves? I don't quite see that here on this board.

I don't think anyone is talking about your one handed riding, it sounds like you do this in a program, which is what MC is getting at, (I think?)
If it works for you, super! It's good for all of us to be reminded of these options and choose to use or not use them

Case in point: I have never used whip or spurs in 6 yrs since I didn't need them. Now I think they are going to become part of my program. So with this horse I don't do 1 handed except for stretching, I may bring it in to things as it makes sense. Also, the main point is the horses go well, 1-2 or no handed.

[Chisamba]

i think riding with one hand occasionally can be a good test of if the horse is coming equally into both reins. can you half halt with one hand, it is not very useful for improving expression of gaits and cross over in lateral work. a horse that goes well in one hand CAN also simply be posing in the same way that a horse that is too light can sometimes be posing. Like MC i am not accusing anyone here, i am just suggesting pitfalls

as for transitions with one hand, since you should not be using the reins to create the transition, simply to tell the horse how you want it positioned in the transition, I do not see the value

[musical comedy]

[Unlike some posters on this board, I actually have a pretty low opinion of my riding skills. I also consider anything below the FEI levels to be "lower level."

Nice dig. Doesn't really bother me what you think. I know you mean me. I have plenty of riding faults and I stress about them daily. Do I think I'm a better rider and more experienced than some on this board? Yes I do.

[Ryeissa]

.

[khall]

MC Western riders often train with two hands and in a snaffle. I am thinking more along the lines of sport type Western riders, i.e. Cowboy dressage, WD, reining, ranch riding not your Western Pleasure peanut rollers.

I think we all need to work every time we ride on ourselves and on our horses, isn't that what dressage is all about? No need for digs or come backs. Even the best of the best ride with eyes on the ground. If you have more experience and knowledge then share, but IMO ego has NO place in horses. One of the things I look for in an instructor is for them to be humble.

Chisamba LOL! Sometimes it is not about the training but conquering your fear! T/C transition one handed with Rip would be in that category!!

Riding with one hand should be about improvement (as some have posted they see an improvement often when they ride one handed) and using the information we get from the test for that improvement. Sometimes we see immediate improvement sometimes it is incorporated into our daily work. I do it to make myself ride better since I often don't have eyes on the ground. I too can get handsy and riding with a bridge or one handed takes that away. Can I ride extensions with one hand? Not yet with Rip, I hope to though. Probably could in the canter if I can conquer my fear! Trot, no. I do often ride lateral work one handed though.

Rye incorporating the spurs into my work with Rip has been huge this year. He is not mr lightfoot, they help with the ease of lateral movement. We've always ridden with a whip, sometimes 2.

[Ryeissa]

Rye incorporating the spurs into my work with Rip has been huge this year. He is not mr lightfoot, they help with the ease of lateral movement. We've always ridden with a whip, sometimes 2.

I am thinking of starting in with the whip to help in collection. I think at some point we as riders exhaust the natural aids, and despite wanting to have everything perfect and always have a perfect response to the leg and seat, we can use some tools when we are trying to explain things to the horse. I'm in that 2nd-level thermoclyne of Hard-ness, and I have a lot to learn too. Maybe my trainer would be different, but my horse has my butt to deal with lol for better or worse.

[exvet]

Had an AWESOME lesson today and really had a lot of 'don't worry about if it's not perfect (ideal), we're creating the foundation and establishing the concept moments. I've been toying with reinback a little bit even though Junior is just green and at training level. Today we were able to get him really lifting in his withers, understanding what responsive truly means and created a whole new gear at the trot by incorporating rein back in a way that got him to keep his balance and lightness through his shoulders and not so much worried about on the bit/above the bit/behind the bit etc. He was simply THERE and on the bit <period> through the exercise once he caught on to the point.

I needed some ground help (with the whip) initially to get him to really understand how to lift (use his thoracic sling) and engage and use himself properly while taking backwards steps; but in doing so, the trot forward improved immensely, the halts were becoming '10s' and the little pee brain was having light bulb moments to the degree the whole arena was lit up (his brain and mine). The focus was more on rein aids and momentum to a degree that I've not been asked to do before and yet the result was far better. I had always been taught to use less rein and far more seat and leg. This is a training exercise and not learning how to perfect the reinback for competition. We were able to accomplish this even with two stallions and another horse (though thankfully not grey) in the arena. There were plenty of 'rough' moments in the beginning in order to get him to connect the dots; but, once he did, the finesse was easier to achieve and his personna (ie., confidence in a good way instead of ponytude) began to shine.

[Ryeissa]

Awesome exvet !

[Chisamba]

Exvet, this sounds similar to my lightbulb moments on using rein aids

[khall]

Nice exvet!

Alternating reins aids or letting the horse yield to the rein aids?

Mark's wife Hela shared a picture of Mark and his horse Sola (brother from another mother to Rip!) and captioned it yielding the chest, that picture and description has helped me tremendously with the RB and Rip (which historically has been difficult for him to get correctly). Sometimes just the smallest of nuances can make big differences in the horses and our understanding.

Bored today, have the landscapers out and busy around the farm, too much going on to get horses out.

[piedmontfields]

Doesn't really bother me what you think. I know you mean me. I have plenty of riding faults and I stress about them daily. Do I think I'm a better rider and more experienced than some on this board? Yes I do.

Actually, I did not mean you. But feel free to embrace the post as you wish.

[khall]

piedmont why say anything: Unlike some posters on this board, If you want to call someone out, then do so directly. I can see why MC thought you were pointing the finger at her since you quoted her right before this statement.

I get tired of jabs and snark. What's the point? We know what we know, we also usually know what we don't know. There is always going to be someone who is a better rider, there is always going to be someone who is a worse rider. So what. I like discussions to learn, was doing this was some people I know about bosal/hackamores the other day. They are proponents and this set up makes no sense to me in a training way. So I was asking them to learn more. Doesn't mean I'm going to go out and spend money on a bosal (I hate Western saddles for one) they are both European I found it interesting they are proponents (German/Netherlands).

[Moutaineer]

Maybe you all should quit trying to work out how many angels can dance on the head of a pin and go ride your horses.

Preferably in front of the leg and with quality contact (which I think is a bit like what the judge said about pornography in the Lady Chatterley trial--you know it when you experience it...)

[exvet]

LOL Mountaineer - well said.