All things canter- to get, improve and engage leading to collection

[Ryeissa]

I am fairly certain a gait and anatomy specialist could explain this better but the horse jumps in the canter which is a the beat gait. Jumping sideways requires no cross over, no step under, not added balance. If you as a rider are good enough to place shoulders hips and control balance going sideways, you don't need the sideways to develop balance.

What do you mean jumping sideways? I am not sure I understand.

In a true jump (ie jumping a fence) both hindlegs plant and the front jumps. In the canter there is loading of one hind leg and they separate from each other in the rhythm.

in the canter the inside hind leg jumps under and slightly across the body and there is engagement. There is diagonal inside and outside forces still at work.

[Chisamba]

Watch the video no criticism the rider is doing a fine job. The horse is moving away from the inside hind leg, so it is stepping away from the leg. So the inside hind never steps under the body. The font legs go first, pull the body over and the hind end has permission to trail. The horse does move better into the outside rein which has supplying value especially to the convex side.

https://youtu.be/Rk22xW3FOl0

[khall]

I don't agree chisamba, pause the video and see where he is crossing the inside HL over the outside HL in the LY and does step under the CL. That is a lovely horse.

[demi]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCJwQ3gQwY0

I am posting this to show a problem. It's from the middle of my 35 minute ride and I have been working on getting her completely on my seat and separate from my hands (after reading exvet's comments about her last lesson, I realized that I am working on this, just not being as successful as exvet!). I can get Rocky on my seat but in doing so, I let the reins get to long. In my clip, it shows a walk canter transition which I cannot get unless Rocky is on my seat...but then, because the reins are too long, she falls out of the the canter after a few strides.

From exvet's post (the same one about her lesson) I know that I am suffering from fear of going behind the vertical. I now have a very good trainer that I trust, and am working on letting go of that deeply entrenched dogma! I need to concentrate on not backing off on the contact (for me that means not letting the reins get too long) if I feel too much or not enough in the hand, but instead use my seat to balance her and keep her seeking my hand which talks to her about suppleness and where I want her to be. NOT so easy to do. It's kind of a fine line for me at this point.

Also, this video was from May 7 or 9, and about 15 rides since then. I feel we've improved a bit since then, and will try to update the video soon.

aaacckkk. posting video

[Ryeissa]

I don't agree chisamba, pause the video and see where he is crossing the inside HL over the outside HL in the LY and does step under the CL. That is a lovely horse.

I agree. This horse is on the outside rein, which prevents the just sideways idea. the horse is staying straight in the shoulders. its a LY so no bend- would be curious to see this done in HP which would show us more loading on the inside hind.

this is also why we have to guard the haunches from doing their own thing in lateral movements.

[demi]

Exvet, I can see Jr’s improvement from the video at the show to the video clip of your lesson. Thanks so much for sharing. I would like to see the conformation shots of Jr at 8 week intervals. It would be interesting if others could do that too. One of my favorite books is one that Paul Belasik did on the development of several young horses showing them from babies to first/second levelish. I love to look at them, and it’s so interesting to know about their particular temperaments and conformation.

[Ryeissa]

demi- don't kill the messenger here but I have a suggestion- have you ridden him in a different arena? the footing might be a tad hard (?) I hesitate to say it but it might be a contribution to the slight fussy tone I get.
Ignore me if you want....I

[khall]

Thanks demi for posting some video. Rocky looks nicely active and good in the bridle in the trot. I am not seeing what Rye sees, she looks perfectly happy to do the trot work. What I am seeing in the W C transition is that she is not strong enough yet for this transition and she is flattening in it, using the base of her neck to lift the front end up rather than stretching into the outside rein coiling the HQs and stepping into the C with power and strength which is why she cannot canter afterward. I would like to see her stretch more into the outside rein and you sit in a bit of SF positioning yielding her laterally to help her balance. If Rocky cannot do the spiral in at trot spiral out into canter then she is not strong enough for W C transitions. I would definitely be doing more yielding laterally with her, counter SI in particular which opens up and releases these big muscled chests and rocks them back onto their outside HL and putting them better into the outside rein.

I hope you find some of this helpful.

[Ryeissa]

Just a note that I'm not seeing lameness or anything like that- just as khall mentioned the contact issues and a general lack of throughness. Just something to consider, we get used to one environment and footing style. It could be completely irrelevant as I an not there to walk on it, but I usually can tell pretty accurately...?

[demi]

....What I am seeing in the W C transition is that she is not strong enough yet for this transition and she is flattening in it, using the base of her neck to lift the front end up rather than stretching into the outside rein coiling the HQs and stepping into the C with power and strength which is why she cannot canter afterward....

I hope you find some of this helpful.

Thanks khall. I really appreciate your assessment and I do find it helpful. I have said that I think she needs to build strength so I’m glad you see it too. I don’t do many walk canter transitions, just every once in a while to test if she is really on my seat. My trainer has me do A LOT of lateral work. So much so that I have to cry uncle before the end of my lessons because my legs turn to jello. I dont do much lateral work at home because I need my trainer’s support, plus she has mirrors and I don’t. Since I haul out for a lesson once a week, at this point I hope that just weekly lateral work is good enough. At home I do trails and hills 1-2 a week and for the arena work I do lots of trot canter trot, and all stuff from training level tests. As we both get stronger I will try to add in lateral work at home, including the spiral in and out.

[demi]

Just a note that I'm not seeing lameness or anything like that- just as khall mentioned the contact issues and a general lack of throughness. Just something to consider, we get used to one environment and footing style. It could be completely irrelevant as I an not there to walk on it, but I usually can tell pretty accurately...?

I think I know what you are seeing as fussiness, and I think your point is valid. Rocky had a torn front suspensory about 8 months ago so I appreciate that you consider potential footing problems. However, you must have missed reading that I haul out for weekly lessons so I do ride in another arena. You also seem to have missed that Rocky is also a “her” not a “him”! and mares can have attitudes. I get this same occasional and slight behavior (tight back and tension) at my trainers, but my trainer is quite good and experienced, and she says Rocky is just a very sensitive and opinionated mare. My trainer has taken a few horses to GP and several more to PSG and higher. She is a self proclaimed mare person, and she has ridden Rocky quite a bit. They like each other and it’s apparent, so Im confident that she is watching out for us. Working through the tension is all part of the process, I think.

[blob]

Demi, thanks for sharing video!

When Rocky comes out of the canter in that video is she breaking? Or are you asking for the down transition? If Rocky is breaking frequently, I would do one of two things or both:
1. Ask for the downward transitions early and often before she breaks. So that it's on your terms and so that she is able to build strength through correct transitions.
2. If she does break, get her back into the canter right away with a correct upward transition.


As Khall mentioned, it does seem like there is a strength and a bit of a balance issue here. But I would add that if the horse is having trouble staying in the canter, then she's probably not strong enough for a correct walk-canter transition. I would take advantage of your forward, rhythmical trot and use that to get good strong canter work.

[piedmontfields]

Hi Demi-

I still like you and Rocky in your video! Trot looks very solid and even in a 1st-ish level balance. Kind of related to Exvet's post, I would really look at your video and think about whether Rocky is actually behind the vertical very much during your work. My guess would be no, and you could keep a more clear contact through transitions. I've gone through this with Em and been surprised by her position once I really looked at film. Sometimes feeling is not the same as balance. I look forward to updates!

[StraightForward]

Demi, thank you for posting. I also like the trot section. I think Rocky was anticipating there a bit, and getting tense and short with the short bit of walk before the canter depart. In your boots, I think I would ask for the down transition, establish a quality walk and do a 10m volte, making sure she is bending and reaching for the bit a little, and not tightening the poll. If one volte doesn't restore the walk quality, do another, and then keep a little bit of SF, as Khall says, when asking for the canter depart. You might also just resume trot in the SF/SI position if the canter is too difficult.

[Chisamba]

I don't agree chisamba, pause the video and see where he is crossing the inside HL over the outside HL in the LY and does step under the CL. That is a lovely horse.

do a screen grab and show me, i am not seeing it.

[Ryeissa]

Just a note that I'm not seeing lameness or anything like that- just as khall mentioned the contact issues and a general lack of throughness. Just something to consider, we get used to one environment and footing style. It could be completely irrelevant as I an not there to walk on it, but I usually can tell pretty accurately...?

I think I know what you are seeing as fussiness, and I think your point is valid. Rocky had a torn front suspensory about 8 months ago so I appreciate that you consider potential footing problems. However, you must have missed reading that I haul out for weekly lessons so I do ride in another arena. You also seem to have missed that Rocky is also a “her” not a “him”! and mares can have attitudes. I get this same occasional and slight behavior (tight back and tension) at my trainers, but my trainer is quite good and experienced, and she says Rocky is just a very sensitive and opinionated mare. My trainer has taken a few horses to GP and several more to PSG and higher. She is a self proclaimed mare person, and she has ridden Rocky quite a bit. They like each other and it’s apparent, so Im confident that she is watching out for us. Working through the tension is all part of the process, I think.

'

sounds good! sorry I got the gender wrong

[khall]

chi samba here you go

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =3&theater

[Ryeissa]

chi samba here you go

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... =3&theater

good job- this is what I was seeing too. Again THIS IS not a BENDING exercise so there isn't the same loading of the half pass- this is NOT the right exercizs if that is your goal

[piedmontfields]

This is so simple, but a dear friend reminded me of this exercise today on a 20 m circle: Exactly 4 (or less) strides canter. To exactly 4 (or less) strides trot. Repeat. It is all about being accountable for your aids and your horses' response...and feeling the improvements from that lack of ambiguity. It is harder than it sounds.

[Rosie B]

Hah! I do that one at least once a week. Well ridden transitions are the bread and butter of dressage. And if you don’t have complete control over exactly when and where they occur, your horse is not actually on the aids.

[Chisamba]

This is so simple, but a dear friend reminded me of this exercise today on a 20 m circle: Exactly 4 (or less) strides canter. To exactly 4 (or less) strides trot. Repeat. It is all about being accountable for your aids and your horses' response...and feeling the improvements from that lack of ambiguity. It is harder than it sounds.

And excellent exercise and reminder. I mean make it six sides if you like, but even walk a 10m circle at A, canter at A, canter a 10m circle, walk at A. It has everything, horse on the aids, simple transition, a 10m circle has all the supplying, balancing and collecting advantages of the plie.

I do enjoy lateral work but well done transitions on the circle are magic! If you ride to show just about every scoring section has a transition.

The tests are designed to both test current and prepare for the next level. So even if you do not enjoy showing riding a test at home is a good way to evaluate your progress

[heddylamar]

Since lateral work does wonders for my mare at the trot, I attempted the leg yield in 5 steps, then out 5, at the canter: perfectly executed lead changes every time We're no where near ready to teach flying lead changes (I'm just hoping for a balanced, on the bit canter!), but Maia will grasp those quite easily. I did use the 5 in, 5 out exercise at the trot successfully.

After that fail, I went back to our previously successful canter exercises down the long sides of the arena: shallow counter-canter arcs, lengthen canter, followed by a simple change across the diagonal.

We spent the past two weeks working in the big field on a grade, so half of our circles were downhill. Cantering downhill was eye-opening the first few times, but once she got a handle on the balancing thing, it was a great exercise.

[Ryeissa]

Since lateral work does wonders for my mare at the trot, I attempted the leg yield in 5 steps, then out 5, at the canter: perfectly executed lead changes every time We're no where near ready to teach flying lead changes (I'm just hoping for a balanced, on the bit canter!), but Maia will grasp those quite easily. I did use the 5 in, 5 out exercise at the trot successfully.

I believe we can only do canter LY one direction, not in a zig zag. Its too hard on the horse. On the right lead you can LY to the right not back over to the left. It's been awhile since I did LY canter work but I know I've had this discussion with my trainer. Others may not agree but this is just how I've been taught.

[blob]

This is so simple, but a dear friend reminded me of this exercise today on a 20 m circle: Exactly 4 (or less) strides canter. To exactly 4 (or less) strides trot. Repeat. It is all about being accountable for your aids and your horses' response...and feeling the improvements from that lack of ambiguity. It is harder than it sounds.

And excellent exercise and reminder. I mean make it six sides if you like, but even walk a 10m circle at A, canter at A, canter a 10m circle, walk at A. It has everything, horse on the aids, simple transition, a 10m circle has all the supplying, balancing and collecting advantages of the plie.

Did variations of this with both of mine today (different for their level and needs).

With MM, I did walk-canter-walk every 4 strides starting on a 20 meter circle and gradually moving to a 10 meter circle. With her the challenge was keeping the jump in the canter, especially when she started anticipating the walk transitions. Canter 10-meter cirlces in general are not our strong suit. We can pull off the first half well, but we struggle with the second half. So having transitions within the circle was a nice way to focus on quality of bend and consistency of size while still being able to renew the quality of the canter.

With RP, I did what was probably closer to a 30-meter circle (our arena is nearly 40-meters wide) and did 6 trot, 6 canter. This was definitely a challenge for us. Keeping the circle shape consistent through the transitions proved to be a bigger challenge than I anticipated. Keeping the stride count was also tricky because I really needed about 3 strides to prep for either transition (up or down) and about 3 strides to get him going well in the new gait. So, as soon as the trot/canter would get into the right rhythm and balance, i'd have to start thinking about the transition. So, this is definitely a good exercise for us, both in terms of prepping for up/down transitions, but also to get into a balanced gait right from the get-go. Plus keeping the bend and track. Lots and lots to work on. He did start anticipating the upward transitions quite a bit, so I had to throw in a few 'surprise, we're actually just going ot keep trotting/do a walk transitions instead' to keep him listening, but he did not anticipate as badly as I thought he might.

[Chisamba]

The challenge of transitions is maintaining quality of gait. Each stride should be the same rhythm and tempo. So first stride of canter should have all the jump and energy. At times repeating transitions to much can rob the stride of jump.

I don't do it over and over and over and I do vary the number of strides. But a constant reminder to self to maintain quality of gait and tempo.

[piedmontfields]

The challenge of transitions is maintaining quality of gait.

Very true. While I'll test myself with a set pattern, I often vary my counting in order to maintain quality of gait plus accountability (me).

This exercise is actually very similar to the exercise Mountaineer described. It is all about making each stride THE SAME THE SAME THE SAME.

[Rosie B]

I've been working a lot on the canter lately and have been seeing some positive changes as a result. I haven't been doing anything very different, just being more consistent and clear in my demands. I've been doing lots of transitions and rubber band exercises on 20m circles and that's about it. But I've been trying to sit in such a way as to encourage him to be quicker with the hindlegs and more connected. Anytime he loses rhythm behind I send him forward and anytime he loses suppleness I gently encourage him to soften by asking for a little more flexion/bend. I've also been focused very intentionally on collecting the canter prior to downward transitions (thinking canter on the spot). When he gets it together, I just sit quietly and let him be.

The canter pic I posted on the goals forum I think shows the results of this work, but since then I've been even more consistent about the requirements. Once he's warmed up, this is the canter that I expect him to have and maintain himself, and I only intervene when he loses it. Result have varied - some days have been better than others, some days have been more consistent than others, but I haven't varied in what I'm asking for, how I'm asking, or how I respond. Always though, I get some really good canter, and when I get it, I try to see how consistently he can maintain it himself. Again, results there have been a little varied.

Yesterday I think he figured it out. It was like he went "oh! I think I know what you want!" and then he maintained it himself quite well on the circle, and I was able to take it off the circle a bit. It'll be interesting to see if he's quicker to understand when I ride him next. The canter I'm looking for is very different than his natural canter. His natural canter is very long strided, flowing, and doesn't have a lot of jump. The new canter is quicker, the rhythm is a little different - quicker and more airtime, more up and down, and less length of stride. I think we're approaching a decent collected canter.

I didn't realize until this year how different a real collected canter with him is from his natural canter. Every other horse I've ridden has been short backed, and his is longer. It makes sense that this would be harder for him and would take more time to develop.

[demi]

Yesterday’s lesson with our trainer focused on canter. It was really neat. As I’ve mentioned in this thread, Rocky’s right lead is uncomfortable to ride and I had decided it was just a strenght issue. And it is, but the approach the trainer had me use yesterday had a nice effect. Instead of doing a little shoulder fore as I had been doing to the right, she had me trot squares on the right rein, and at the corners, walk and do a quarter turn on the forehand, and right back to trot. On the straight part, I did a little flexion left, and also kept her haunches out. It seemed like she made me do this exercise forever and my right leg was killing me! Finally she said now canter right on a 20m circle. Amazingly (to me!) the right canter felt just as balanced as her left.

I willl unfortunately miss next week’s lesson but I think over the next few weeks this will gel, and I’ll better be able to help her get stronger. I just loved the lesson and the feel! We ended up cantering both directions well enough that she had me do simple changes on a figure eight. We did three and they were quite good. The transitions were a little abrupt but that can be fixed with practice.

I will be taking care of my mom next week and no time for riding or videos but when I get home I’ll try to get vids to show what’s happening. The things I had been doing to correct the problem were all good (shoulder fore, lift a little higher on the right rein to straighten me up and give her more room for her hind leg to come under, and hill work for general strength) but the exercise we did yesterday added to the whole thing.

Thanks for all the input on this thread! It really helps me in thinking these things through.

[khall]

That is exciting demi! That is an interesting exercise. Do you know exactly what your instructor was aiming for using these particular pieces of the puzzle? I love riding squares, really makes you ride with precision keeping the horse on the aids.

We are having rain and storms these last several days so have not been able to get anything done and had to postpone the Cedar clinic until mid July (not optimum but better than the storms we've been having). Rode before the weather started hitting and added a couple of exercises that helped with canter work IMO:
walk piri to canter and counter turn to canter on L lead when he was wanting to lean onto the L shoulder. Enabled him to shift his weight into his R shoulder and lighten his L shoulder and compressing the R hind for balance and engagement.

[demi]

Khall, I am laterally challenged! So I am not sure what my trainer was telling me as she was having me do the exercise. I THINK she said Rocky wasn’t getting her right hind under in the right lead canter, and the exercise helped her learn how to do it. I thought it was interesting because it’s similar to what we have previously been doing when working to the left at trot, which was basically renvers. In each exercise, it seems that we are working on getting the horse’s inside leg to work into the outside rein.

Lateral work is difficult for me to understand let alone try to communicate about it on line! Just the stuff I wrote in the preceding paragraph, I’m not sure I was clear, because WTF is the inside rein! If I’m going in the left direction, the inside rein should be the left rein, BUT if I’m going left but doing renvers, does the right rein then become the inside rein because the horse is flexed right!? And the same with inside leg.

Maybe we could have a lateral work thread....

[exvet]

Demi, I too struggle with wrapping my mind around some of the concepts with lateral movements; but, when I put it in terms of feel and focusing on straightening the horse it then makes more sense to me. Is it possible that your horse is weaker on the right hind and her normal posture in the gait is to travel with the right hind out or at least not underneath?..... so if you focus on working towards a renver you are getting her to travel more balanced and true with regard to straightness in her body? My welsh cob, Monty, (wow, hard to believe he's 21 now) was weaker in the left hind and doing similar exercises actually straightened him into both reins and made it easier to get him to engage and come through - it was tough for me to maintain him in that carriage; but, the more we worked through it the easier it got. The key or trick for me when using any of these exercises to straighten the horse is to remember to give lots of breaks - not always changing the gait or coming down to a walk but riding 10 and 15 meter circles to help give the horse a little bit of a physical and mental reprieve or re-freshening and all the while working on keeping the horse straight and truthfully working over its back just not keeping it in the lateral movement of choice for too long and causing exhaustion or injury. I'm heading out for a lesson this morning, to work on more canter I'm sure.

[khall]

The inside rein is the rein that the horse is bent to regardless of placement in the arena. I'm game for a lateral work thread! I do find many people are confused about the differences in lateral work. It is my bread and butter:) and I teach it many ways both US and from the ground. Use it to fix issues with the horse often and is a go to for me in all 3 gaits when appropriate but also agree with exvet not to over school it (though many would be amazed at some of the trainers I admire how long they use lateral work) and the need to refresh the gait. Jillian also reminded me when working on counter bending and SF in the canter to carefully and slowly make the changes. Rip felt awesome in our lesson with Jillian as we did canter work.

demi if I were to guess it sounds like the exercises your instructor had you doing was more about increasing the engagement and suppleness of the RH with Rocky. Moving TOF on R rein asks the RH to step under CL even to a bit of crossing CL which mobilizes the hips and helps to supple them. Renvere on R rein engages the RH and puts the horse into the R rein. Also just as important is the stepping out with the LH. Renver mobilizes the shoulders and is my all time favorite exercise for increasing engagement.

Just wanted to say a big thank you to piedmont and chisamba for the reminder on C T C transitions and minding the striding. Tried it twice with Rip now, first time was a bit of a disaster. He just did not feel up to snuff that day and it showed in this exercise, but revisited it today and it was rough initially but as I kept schooling it, keeping my intentions and aids clear he and I got together. It really got Rip's motor going to the point of anticipating which is a good thing for him! and truly built the power and engagement on him (I kept the reins short and my seat there). I think it will also be a good way to build his fitness. At one point he was even offering the canter before I asked which I will always take from him! He is not the most giving of horses so when he says hey mom can we just keep cantering I'm happy:) Now we did go back and made sure I could get the transitions clear on both sides and yes so agree it is an excellent tool for our tool box.

[Josette]

Demi - I'm working on the same issue as you except it is our left side. Your exercise was very informative as I had forgotten about using the square. I was doing more leg yields on straight lines. However, I tried your exercise the other day (before our heavy rains) and will try again tomorrow. I've been very focused on getting my guy into equal contact on both reins as he is more left rein dominant. Any time I feel him backing off a bump with the leg to move up and forward into even contact. His forward motor is very good and maybe too much at times because he can get tense and too quick. So keep up your exercise descriptions and I will experiment but on the left side!

[demi]

Demi - I'm working on the same issue as you except it is our left side. Your exercise was very informative as I had forgotten about using the square. I was doing more leg yields on straight lines. However, I tried your exercise the other day (before our heavy rains) and will try again tomorrow. I've been very focused on getting my guy into equal contact on both reins as he is more left rein dominant. Any time I feel him backing off a bump with the leg to move up and forward into even contact. His forward motor is very good and maybe too much at times because he can get tense and too quick. So keep up your exercise descriptions and I will experiment but on the left side!

Your pony sounds a lot like mine. She has a very good forward motor and she can get tense and too quick quite easily. In my lessons the trainer pushes us to the point where Rocky gets tense and then I lose her. But I think that’s a technique she uses. She doesn’t “push” us till close to the end of the lesson, and after pushing us past our ability, she ends with something we do well.

Like you, I have also been focusing on getting Rocky onto equal contact on both reins. It seems like a simple thing, but there are so many other things to balance, that I can forget about equal contact. One time my trainer yelled, “you have two reins for a reason!”!