Metronome trots... nature or nurture?

[Tsavo]

The horse I exercise has a metronome trot. He is an OTTB.

Was this trained or was he born that way?

[StraightForward]

Rhythm is the only part of the training scale I don't really find to be a problem? Maybe it's me, but I find most horses can have a metronome trot with no problem. Struggling to think of a horse I've worked with that had rhythm challenges. I think any issues just arise out of balance problems, which manifest as changes in rhythm.

[Tsavo]

He maintains it over hill and dale.

[Tsavo]

Rhythm is the only part of the training scale I don't really find to be a problem? Maybe it's me, but I find most horses can have a metronome trot with no problem. Struggling to think of a horse I've worked with that had rhythm challenges. I think any issues just arise out of balance problems, which manifest as changes in rhythm.

So are you saying it is easy to train or are you saying most horses are born that way?

[blob]

It's both.. Some horses naturally have a very clear rhythm. Others need to be taught. The ones that are taught are usually just as consistent as the ones that have it naturally

[Tsavo]

How does this play into the balance before movement idea? Isn't the premise of that that ALL horses are NOT balanced and you have to keep coming down to halt, regain balance, and then move again?

Then we have my question about how many times a PSG horse comes out of balance in a random PSG test and what that means in terms of people claiming they are doing BBM.

[StraightForward]

Rhythm is the only part of the training scale I don't really find to be a problem? Maybe it's me, but I find most horses can have a metronome trot with no problem. Struggling to think of a horse I've worked with that had rhythm challenges. I think any issues just arise out of balance problems, which manifest as changes in rhythm.

So are you saying it is easy to train or are you saying most horses are born that way?

I'm saying it will happen naturally if the rider is balanced and rhythmic, but riding out of balance can degrade the innate rhythm. Horses with conformational asymmetries would probably have related rhythm issues, but from an efficiency in movement standpoint, it makes sense, especially for trot to by quite rhythmic naturally as an efficient, ground-covering gait.

[Abby Kogler]

And down the endless rabbit hole we go. If one would actually do some reading about Baucher and Phillippe Karl or Racinet one might miraculously find these questions answered/addressed.

The BBM idea is that from balance comes correct movement comes self carriage. A horse can have a great metronome trot and not be in self carriage. The concept of 'working in the posture of which you are trying to achieve" is at the core of the Legerete training scale. The idea of lightness and self carriage in the French school comes from working always, from the very beginning, in the posture of collection, even it just at the walk, and as the horse becomes stronger in the correct position one adds. The goals are the same...balance and self carriage and lightness, But the path is different. It makes strong biomechanical sense to me.

Say I want to do ballet. I go to an instructor and say I want to do ballet. Do I go and start jumping around every day, hoping that repeating my jumping will somehow miraculously make me a dancer? No. I stand at the bar, and I train my body by working in the posture of which I am trying to achieve.

Legerete school is the same. Its all the same work that the German school does...SI, counter SI, HI, half pass, all of it. Every exercise is utilized by both schools. But in the legerete school the first thing is teaching the horse to accept the contact in such a way that they are light in the hand from the very beginning. LIGHT in the hand. There is no holding, no pulling, no leaning. Every rein aid is applied at the corners of the mouth, never the bars or tomgue. The poll is high and the throat open. And you work in this way every step. And the horse gets stronger and more balanced .

Bertrand Ravoux is an excellent teacher. He is incredibly kind and horse centric. Hes a gifted rider.

Legerete or BBM is not antithetical to showing. It has a different training scale but the goal is the same. Straightness lightness, rhythm, self carriage, collection.

I know there are people here who had negative experiences with the Legerete school. But it seems silly to me to dump an entire method because some people didn't understand or manifest if correctly/well. If we hold the traditional method to that standard then every Nick Peronance or brutish idiot would mean that the whole dressage training idea is foul. That is so silly.

I have seen many walks and trots wrecked by riders who do not understand contact.

[Tsavo]

Rhythm is the only part of the training scale I don't really find to be a problem? Maybe it's me, but I find most horses can have a metronome trot with no problem. Struggling to think of a horse I've worked with that had rhythm challenges. I think any issues just arise out of balance problems, which manifest as changes in rhythm.

So are you saying it is easy to train or are you saying most horses are born that way?

I'm saying it will happen naturally if the rider is balanced and rhythmic, but riding out of balance can degrade the innate rhythm. Horses with conformational asymmetries would probably have related rhythm issues, but from an efficiency in movement standpoint, it makes sense, especially for trot to by quite rhythmic naturally as an efficient, ground-covering gait.

Okay I see your point. That makes sense.

The horse I exercise is just a machine riding anywhere inside or outside the arena. It gives the sense that I could do it all day and nothing would change. It is easy to be balanced and rhythmic on him and it feels like he is leading that dance and I am just not perturbing his balance. That's why I think some of this must be genetics and not just my core strength.

I also think even upper level horses lose there balance when challenged as in say a PSG test and that a lot of people have the wrong idea about what exactly balance before movement really is and isn't. It is not what most people think in my opinion.

[Abby Kogler]

I also think even upper level horses lose there balance when challenged as in say a PSG test and that a lot of people have the wrong idea about what exactly balance before movement really is and isn't. It is not what most people think in my opinion.

And the very best way to understand it is to read the books that discuss it. Then it could be discussed in an educated manner.

[Chisamba]

By metronome trot do you mean the first stride of trot after a transition is the same as every other stride? That when you lengthen stride or make a small circle the tempo is identical? Absolutely no change of tempo with changes of direction or lateral work.

I am a skeptic.

[Tsavo]

By metronome trot do you mean the first stride of trot after a transition is the same as every other stride? That when you lengthen stride or make a small circle the tempo is identical? Absolutely no change of tempo with changes of direction or lateral work.

I am a skeptic.

No horse is perfect. I am saying the horse gives the sense of not varying the trot step much. That does not extend to the lateral work ATM where his various infirmities show. That makes it even more amazing how rhythmic he can be otherwise including outside the arena.

[Chisamba]

Rhythm and tempo are not related, most horses have a true 2 beat rhythm for trot, most horses change tempo in the areas I mentioned above.

So yes , rhythm is nature, tempo is nurture.

[Ryeissa]

If we talk about canter vs trot then rhythm is more nurture - I find more horses have trouble maintaining 3 beat canters due to strength issues and balance issues I find the walks easier to screw up in rhythm once you hit collection.

Rhythm- purity of gaits.
tempo- beats per min

I have a phone ap that has my horses/ BPM and it really helped me maintain proper cadence. (Its for musicians)

[Tsavo]

Rhythm and tempo are not related, most horses have a true 2 beat rhythm for trot, most horses change tempo in the areas I mentioned above.

So yes , rhythm is nature, tempo is nurture.

I am talking about rhythm, not tempo.

[Ryeissa]

Rhythm and tempo are not related,

actually yes, they are if you ask me. A rushing over tempo (beats per min) is more likely to be on the forehand and crooked so they are much more likely to have an un-pure gait. The hind legs and front legs might look disunited.

[Ryeissa]

and rhythm and tempo have been interchanged on the training pyramid tossed back and forth

[Chisamba]

So by definition a trot is a two beat rhythm. If it's not 2 beat, it's not a trot.

[Chisamba]

A horse could have a tempo of 120bpm up a hill and 171bpm downhill and have the same rhythm throughout

[Ryeissa]

So by definition a trot is a two beat rhythm. If it's not 2 beat, it's not a trot.

the diagonals need to work in pairs for proper pure gaits.

[Ryeissa]

A horse could have a tempo of 120bpm up a hill and 171bpm downhill and have the same rhythm throughout

yes, agreed.

[Chisamba]

So by definition a trot is a two beat rhythm. If it's not 2 beat, it's not a trot.

the diagonals need to work in pairs for proper pure gaits.

All trots are 2 beats, not all 2 beats are trots. I did not say all 2 beat rhythms are trot, I said by definition all trot is 2 beat, if its not 2 beat it is not trot.

We could discuss a lot about diagonal parity, DAP, period of suspension, and what is desirable, but 2 beat rhythm is the one inarguable definition

[Ryeissa]

So by definition a trot is a two beat rhythm. If it's not 2 beat, it's not a trot.

the diagonals need to work in pairs for proper pure gaits.

All trots are 2 beats, not all 2 beats are trots. I did not say all 2 beat rhythms are trot, I said by definition all trot is 2 beat, if its not 2 beat it is not trot.

We could discuss a lot about diagonal parity, DAP, period of suspension, and what is desirable, but 2 beat rhythm is the one inarguable definition

I'm talking about purity of gait, which can suffer if horses are on the forehand- this is the discussion of non gaited horses

[Ponichiwa]

Metronomes fix tempo, but the rhythm is free to go bananas.

You can canter along to 60 bpm, and you can trot along to 60bpm, but you're still putting the full sequence of footfalls for those gaits within that tempo.

When I hear "metronome trot", I think of horses that keep a consistent tempo without much input from the rider. They can do this over hill and dale and certainly over various figures in a dressage ring. Maybe the tempo gets perturbed in the extended gaits, but for the most part the tempo remains consistent. This is an inbuilt feature (although I hear it can be developed).

My more typical horse experience is that changes of flexion, bend, or direction of travel influence the tempo slightly. Rhythm stays consistent (diagonal pairs with a moment of suspension in between) but as the horse regroups to tackle harder collection challenges (or whatever), the tempo may suffer. Or, if I want to keep the tempo the same throughout all movements, I've got to be willing to give up some expression in the trot.

Not an easy sport, this one.

[Ryeissa]

Metronomes fix tempo, but the rhythm is free to go bananas.

You can canter along to 60 bpm, and you can trot along to 60bpm, but you're still putting the full sequence of footfalls for those gaits within that tempo.

When I hear "metronome trot", I think of horses that keep a consistent tempo without much input from the rider. They can do this over hill and dale and certainly over various figures in a dressage ring. Maybe the tempo gets perturbed in the extended gaits, but for the most part the tempo remains consistent. This is an inbuilt feature (although I hear it can be developed).

My more typical horse experience is that changes of flexion, bend, or direction of travel influence the tempo slightly. Rhythm stays consistent (diagonal pairs with a moment of suspension in between) but as the horse regroups to tackle harder collection challenges (or whatever), the tempo may suffer. Or, if I want to keep the tempo the same throughout all movements, I've got to be willing to give up some expression in the trot.

Not an easy sport, this one.

yeah, I have had my horse 7 yrs and we cycle between tempos that need more energy or less, its a cycle of over and under doing as we learn. I don't think that is unusual. We also cycle through tendencies to be BTV and above the bit.

[Tsavo]

Metronomes fix tempo, but the rhythm is free to go bananas.

Rhythm is the precise regularity which evokes the metronome motif. The absence of tempo changes.

When I hear "metronome trot", I think of horses that keep a consistent tempo without much input from the rider. They can do this over hill and dale and certainly over various figures in a dressage ring. Maybe the tempo gets perturbed in the extended gaits, but for the most part the tempo remains consistent. This is an inbuilt feature (although I hear it can be developed).

It certainly seems genetic but I have not ridden many horses like that so I don't know. If I stay out of his way he is a machine.

[Chisamba]

I am with Rye and Ponichiwa on my understanding of rhythm and tempo.

I do not consider them synonymous when used to describe horse gaits in which the definitions differ from the terms when used musically.

[Ponichiwa]

Metronomes fix tempo, but the rhythm is free to go bananas.

Rhythm is the precise regularity which evokes the metronome motif. The absence of tempo changes.

Rhythm is actually the pattern of repetitions of beats. Think of a classic oom-pah march; the oom-pah is the rhythm, but you could play it at any tempo you want. If you're a middle school band, that tempo is d'FAST AS POSSIBLE.

Tempo is the pace at which rhythm recurs. In horses, it's the tempo at which one full stride of a gait repeats. This is where "speed is the enemy of impulsion" comes in; too quick of a tempo, and the moment of suspension in the trot disappears. Yes, you're also moving over the ground quickly, but the tempo is the real problem.

When I hear "metronome trot", I think of horses that keep a consistent tempo without much input from the rider. They can do this over hill and dale and certainly over various figures in a dressage ring. Maybe the tempo gets perturbed in the extended gaits, but for the most part the tempo remains consistent. This is an inbuilt feature (although I hear it can be developed).

It certainly seems genetic but I have not ridden many horses like that so I don't know. If I stay out of his way he is a machine.

I do think that some of the more naturally talented athlete types get to this balance easier than others. Catch-22 there, though: they may not be used to needing/benefiting from any interference from the saddle and therefore resist input from the rider more than their less-talented compatriots. That's certainly the case for my pony. She was perfectly happy to tick along at Auction Trot without input from me, but it took us a very long time to get her over the "DON'T TOUCH ME, I'M CLEARLY HANDLING IT" phase of training and into a place where I could actually mold her gaits at all without a meltdown.

My sister had an absolutely gorgeous Dutch gelding back in the day. 17h, chestnut, metronome gaits, but he thrived at the lower levels and did not enjoy 3rd+ because of how it made him change his way of going. She stepped him down to be a lease horse for her students and he was happy as a clam til retirement. Just did not want to have to change his balance, I guess.

[Ryeissa]

As far as the Glossary of Dressage Terms used in this country is concerned, “rhythm” means only one thing, which is the characteristic footfalls of a specific gait: four beats for walk, two beats for trot, three beats for canter. That makes talking about rhythm very simple. Tempo, on the other hand, is the rate of repetition of those footfalls, how fast the legs are moving. (For the glossary, visit http://www.usdf.org/EduDocs/Competition ... ssary_.pdf)

[musical comedy]

As far as the Glossary of Dressage Terms used in this country is concerned, “rhythm” means only one thing, which is the characteristic footfalls of a specific gait: four beats for walk, two beats for trot, three beats for canter. That makes talking about rhythm very simple. Tempo, on the other hand, is the rate of repetition of those footfalls, how fast the legs are moving. (For the glossary, visit http://www.usdf.org/EduDocs/Competition ... ssary_.pdf)

Yes. I do not understand how something this basic is being made into a rocket science type of discussion.

[Ryeissa]

As far as the Glossary of Dressage Terms used in this country is concerned, “rhythm” means only one thing, which is the characteristic footfalls of a specific gait: four beats for walk, two beats for trot, three beats for canter. That makes talking about rhythm very simple. Tempo, on the other hand, is the rate of repetition of those footfalls, how fast the legs are moving. (For the glossary, visit http://www.usdf.org/EduDocs/Competition ... ssary_.pdf)

Yes. I do not understand how something this basic is being made into a rocket science type of discussion.

yeah, the terms have clear definitions. People can't make up what they think it means.

[Tsavo]

I have highlighted a word in this definition which came up when searching "dressage rhythm"...

https://dressagetoday.com/theory/differ ... ther-blitz

Tempo: The rate or speed of motion or activity

Rhythm: A strong, regular, repeated pattern of movement or sound

So a question is can a horse maintain speed, the IDENTICAL tempo, with regular and irregular rhythm. I think so.

So then what is the correct word for denoting that a trot does not vary versus a trot that varies but both maintain the same tempo?

[Ryeissa]

I have highlighted a word in this definition where came up when searching "dressage rhythm...

https://dressagetoday.com/theory/differ ... ther-blitz

Tempo: The rate or speed of motion or activity

Rhythm: A strong, regular, repeated pattern of movement or sound

So a question is can a horse maintain speed the IDENTICAL tempo with regular and irregular rhythm. I think so.

So then what is the correct word for denoting that a trot does not vary versus a trot that varies but both maintain the same tempo?

Yes.
Irregular or impure gait. It again goes back to purity of gait. Not tempo.

[Ryeissa]

Don't confuse speed and mechanics....they influence each other as far as training but are distinct entities.

[Ponichiwa]

So then what is the correct word for denoting that a trot does not vary versus a trot that varies but both maintain the same tempo?

In a word-- that horse is lame.

[Tsavo]

So then what is the correct word for denoting that a trot does not vary versus a trot that varies but both maintain the same tempo?

In a word-- that horse is lame.

Well wasn't there a recent study concluding many dressage horses are not necessarily sound?

[Ryeissa]

So then what is the correct word for denoting that a trot does not vary versus a trot that varies but both maintain the same tempo?

In a word-- that horse is lame.

Well wasn't there a recent study concluding many dressage horses are not necessarily sound?

?? most horses aren't sound....

[Tsavo]

In a word-- that horse is lame.

Well wasn't there a recent study concluding many dressage horses are not necessarily sound?

?? most horses aren't sound....

Well including rider induced unevenness, yes that is my recollection. Someone here will remember this.