Too much separation of the hind leg in canter?

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Hi guys! I'm new here but have been reading and following along for the last few months. It seems like a fun and knowledgeable group.

I was curious if you guys think there can be too much separation of the hind legs in the canter? Can you have a horse with a far reaching inside leg but not enough jump in the canter?

I've been riding for over 25 years but only riding dressage the last ten. I'll admit I'm still sadly only capable of 2nd level, schooling 3rd and still very much learning!

I've always been taught to buy the canter and walk for Dressage, that the trot can be most improved on.

I bought a horse with what I thought and my trainer and the vet agreed, had a fairly good canter and walk. I personally don't like his trot much.

Now my gut tells me that my horse is having some discomfort in his hind end or back. I posted in a different thread that one issue is reluctance to have his hind feet messed with.

He has great separation of his hind legs. Like a big difference to my eye. But he seems to lack true push from behind. I'm wondering if he doesn't have such a great canter after all. Or maybe it's in there but there is something physical impeding him. Or maybe it's just his balance, he is still so young! I had been putting off the canter as it seemed like he was struggling with it, I figured he needed to strengthen/grow up some more before balancing in canter with a rider. I'd love opinions/advice if any of the makes sense.

[blob]

Hi lipsmacker!

For the most part, separation in hind legs is obviously great. But it's not just about the inside hind reaching, it's also important for the outside hind to be under the body so the horse can have a balanced push/strike-off. Sometime--especially with younger horses that still haven't totally figured out their balance and strength yet, the canter has so much separation partly because the outside hind is too far out behind and not under the hind-end.

Given your boy is young, I think more strength, more work asking him to step under will get that jump you want. It's possible it's physical and you should definitely explore that, but it might just be a matter of where he is in his journey. I have a friend who bought a youngster with a massive canter stride. He had the problem I mentioned above where he wasn't getting his outside hind under him. In order to get the strength and balance she actually had to make his canter smaller at first, so she could engage that outside hind better. once he built up strength and balance through that smaller canter, she was able to ask for a bigger canter again and this time it came with a lot more bounce and controlled power.

[Tanga]

Basically, you can not have too much separation of the hind leg. It's all good. It's basically impossible to have good separation and for the horse to be out behind, but, if he's young and has that much reach, it might be taking some time for him to balance and get stronger. Blob mentioned some good ideas.

My now 22 year old mare I went to look at based on a picture where I saw a canter with her hind legs widely separated. That is my #1 go to thing when looking for a quality moving horse. It shows they can shift the weight back an carry and are sound. A horse that hurts or has soundness issues will not show separation.

Besides what blob mentioned, you could also do some lunging to help him work on finding the balance and getting strong in the canter. And if you have hills, going up and down them is wonderful for that.

How old is he? How much work has he done?

[Dresseur]

Agreed with the points other posters made. Typically, in very young horses, or horses that lack strength, you see a huge reach with the inside hind leg, but for dressage, what you ultimately want to develop is carrying power, that leads to collection. As the horse starts to carry more, the joints of the hind start to fold, and the canter comes more uphill with more jump. So, initially, I would be making sure (after doing whatever due diligence in terms of making sure he's not sore) that you have a forward button, and I would start doing small in and outs on a circle to get that outside hind carrying a bit more as well as trot/canter transitions.

As he gains strength, lateral work (SI and HI) in the canter will start targeting individual hind legs, which can progress to your working piri, which is basically haunches in at a circle, where you really build strength in the outside hind. As he gets stronger yet, you can start introducing baby collections either through canter/walk/canter or bringing it back on a circle or on the wall - this is where you start to see the hind legs start to jump a bit closer together because the outside is not in such a pushing phase and starts to carry.

The only place huge separation is not great is in teaching changes, where you usually have to have the horse jumping behind very close together so that they can make a small movement with their hip in order to switch it... or if the extreme separation means that the horse is actually a bit slow behind.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Thanks guys! Very interesting!

He definitely has great reach but not enough push from behind. Sometimes he can get really slow behind if that makes sense. But still with the hind leg separation. I think he gets really tight in his back at the canter which is obviously part of it.

He's only 4 and obviously very green and in light work. We are looking into possible soreness so he's only cantered occasionally on the lunge lately.

We do have a decent hill that we can work on a bit so I'll start doing that if the vet clears it.

[blob]

At age 4 he is probably also still growing and might be going through some growing pains. Youngsters often have growth phases where they struggle to sort out their own bodies! Sometimes they can almost look NQR behind. Definitely worth checking into physical causes, but if you don't find something, he might just be going through a funny growth stage.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

He definitely is growing, butt high and balance is tough right now! My vet was leaning towards a growth stage last time she saw him but he hasn't had a full lameness exam. I have some routine stuff I need done soon anyways, so might as well have her look at him and flex him at least.

I had a young horse years ago that was neurologic so I'll admit I can be a bit hypervigelent at times. Hopefully that's it. I'll work on continue to slowly strength him and give him more time to grow into himself too.

[Ponichiwa]

If he's stepping big but slow behind and has issues compressing the canter a bit (and I recognize in a 4yo this is a big ask), take a look at his stifles. He may be compensating for imperfect stifle action by taking bigger strides. Avoids having to compress and load the hind end with a quicker stride.

[Tanga]

If he's only 4 (just 4 or coming 5?) and butt high, I wouldn't be riding him. He's growing so much he can barely coordinate himself. That's just not fair! If you have another horse to pony off of, that would be a good way to condition, and if he could live out in a big, hilly pasture where he has to manage getting up and down that and putting his feet somewhere, that would help a lot.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

If he's stepping big but slow behind and has issues compressing the canter a bit (and I recognize in a 4yo this is a big ask), take a look at his stifles. He may be compensating for imperfect stifle action by taking bigger strides. Avoids having to compress and load the hind end with a quicker stride.

I was thinking stifle as well. So did my Dressage trainer but my vet didn't see any catching or slipping. But I want to investigate a little more.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Tanga, he's not actually being ridden at the moment, this is just what I've observed on the lunge.

He does live in a pen with a decent hill (and then gets turnout with a group of geldings into a pasture.)

Yesterday I did start had walking him up a hill that is in a dry lot. We don't have a lot of hills in this area but there are a few or at least some sloped areas which I feel can be useful. Unfortunately no horses to pony of off.

[Flight]

Do you have a photo or vid of this?

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Flight, I tried to attach a photo but it's saying it's too large. I'll have to play with it and see if I can resize it to attach.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Here is a photo but from a while ago. I don't have a lot of video and what I had was too dark to see.

[blob]

He's certainly very handsome!

It's a bit hard to say anything based on that picture since we can only see one of the two hind legs. We can clearly see him reaching under well, but I can't tell what his outside hind is doing really or how it's positioned at this stage of the canter.

If he reaches under well on both sides, I truly think chances are that you're dealing more with a strength, balance, growth spurt situation more than anything more serious. You said you don't love his trot, but hind end issues are often more noticeable in the trot than in the canter. So even if his trot is not "wow" if it is clearly two-beat with even hind end activity on both sides I wouldn't be too worried.

I don't think you mentioned his breeding or his height. But a lot of warmbloods, especially tall ones, can take quite some time to finish growing and mature. My friend owns a 17.3hh hanovarian who was 16.3 when she got him at age 6!

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Here is a different photo. Again not good quality, I'll have to get more.

He's a TB (not raced or race trained.) He's actually a little guy imo, 15.3 hands right now. I suspect he'll stop at 16 hands. But he could surprise me!

I think overall he is pretty even but that right hind seems a bit weaker at least. We will see what my vet thinks next time she comes. He seems to be better with work so that makes think possibly stifle. Hopefully just weak.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

A self stretch in the trot for reference.

[Tanga]

Tanga, he's not actually being ridden at the moment, this is just what I've observed on the lunge.

He does live in a pen with a decent hill (and then gets turnout with a group of geldings into a pasture.)

Yesterday I did start had walking him up a hill that is in a dry lot. We don't have a lot of hills in this area but there are a few or at least some sloped areas which I feel can be useful. Unfortunately no horses to pony of off.

Great! Sounds like you are doing exactly the right thing.

Those pictures! Wow. That's exactly the kind of picture that sent me to go look at the horse I would have never considered, and bought her. I don't need to see video because that is AMAZING! What a horse you have! I would like to see video, though! It's always interesting to see how still photos correlate to video. Besides showing amazing quality in the gait, it also shows super soundness. Horses that aren't amazingly sound don't move like that behind!

Seriously, I would buy that horse as an upper level dressage horse based on that. (Having three going FEI now.)

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Tanga, thank you! I was looking at a different horse the trainer had and saw a video of him on her page. It's the canter that peaked my interest! He's got some flaws but I loved the feeling he gave me under saddle, even for a green bean. I don't think he's that fancy but he definitely has some nice moments and potential I think!

I look forward to learning more about your horse(s.)

That canter still was from a little while back. I'll try and get more. It's hard with the restrictions right now-the round pen we have available now is smaller and I think much harder for a green horse to balance in. I'll see if I can link another video.

I would think he's sound too to move like that... But we do have some feet challenges. A low grade club on one foot. And he wants to flare in the Hinds. So figuring that out now with vet and farrier to keep him at his best and sound. Fingers crossed.

I do plan to go very slow with him. He's so fine boned and I think a slow down is good for him. We have taken it easy the last few months after I bought him (he had 120 under saddle.)

[Tanga]

There is some stuff about my horses on one of the threads. We had a good championships this year.

I wouldn't worry about his feet, either. The mare I bought off of that hind leg picture has a low grade club feet. She's fine. Try to keep him barefoot. That's the best thing for their feet. All feet flare some. Just feeding him right and keeping the shoes off helps. I feed copper and zinc (the stuff they sell for coats) because it's fabulous for their feet, and it makes them shine, too.

It's not easy to tell, but I think I really like his neck set. It looks like it really comes up and out of the withers.

Slow is the way to go. Mine are ponied and out moving around all along when they are young, but I don't back them until 4, and that year is just very easy. They start to work a bit at 5. At 6 we start pushing a little more. And by 7 they are done with the bone growth (the spine and skull bones don't close until 6 or 7) so we start working on much more collection and strength.

[Lipsmackerpony88]

Tanga, congrats on the championship!

I like his neck too. It's another thing that stood out to me when I saw him. I hope your thoughts are correct and that we can progress to great things someday! I don't compete these days but if we can improve he's gaits and balance even more, maybe school some of the upper level moments someday I either be thrilled! But right now I'm just enjoying the baby horse moments

I looked at him today and he is really looking filled out and nice. Not so gangly anymore and really getting nice muscle. When I first looked at him he was so scary scrawny. It's fun seeing how they change.