Video discussion thoughts on this work? Daniel Dockx on Stretching and Collection

[Ryeissa]

This is a 7yo doing PSG. Curious what people think about this short video- positive and negatives.
Daniel Dockx on Stretching and Collection

https://www.facebook.com/DressageToday/ ... 040320262/
Its also on the dressage today video page, Free for everyone to see this short clip
Thanks!

[mari]

I was a bit confused when he asked for "racing" trot, and then nearly immediately said it was a bit fast Took me a minute to catch on that he meant "rising" trot.

I like it. The horse seemed adjustable even in the long frame, which is something not everyone can get right.

[Kelo]

Looks like nice work with a crazy talented horse to me?

[Tanga]

I think the warm up is fine, especially for certain kinds of horses like that that don't naturally move like that and are more up.

My issue is a 7 year old competing PSG and I-1. The bones in the spine don't close until 6 or 7, which means collected work at much of any level shouldn't be done before then, and I think it's a bad idea to chance a horse having issues from pushing them too young to do this just because they have "natural" talent. No matter how natural, that doesn't change the real time it takes to condition everything properly, and just going on talent I think is going to cause soundness issues and shorten their sound life.

[piedmontfields]

Well, my comments would tend to focus on the rider. I would like to see her improve her chair seat tendency and also learn how to influence the horse's shape with less hand and much less use of W I D E hands. Wide hands are a crutch for baby horses and new riders---and they should not be something used routinely.

The horse is lovely, typey, and seems very kind. Nice walk for the breed. I don't know if the horse is competing at PSG or "trained" to it. It sounds like part of a sales/marketing program (so it might actually be just schooling PSG bits and pieces). Tanga, I do see a lot of horses from Spain and Portugal presented (or marketed) at that level for sales and export.

[Tanga]

peidmontfields He says he competed him two months ago PSG and I-1. I get the whole sales/marketing thing. It bothers me that people think horses pushed to this level so young is good for them in any way. I know the younger you push them, the more money you make, but like racing, I think none of it is good for the horse.

[Tanga]

Ryeissa I'm guessing they are doing this warmup because of the breed and the way the horse is built. They can get much too like a carriage horse, so lots of loose and low probably helps. I did this for me tight young horse for a long time, but don't do it anymore because she wants to stay there. These kinds of horses tend to the opposite, so I'm guessing that's why they do it.

[Ryeissa]

Well, my comments would tend to focus on the rider. I would like to see her improve her chair seat tendency and also learn how to influence the horse's shape with less hand and much less use of W I D E hands. Wide hands are a crutch for baby horses and new riders---and they should not be something used routinely.

The horse is lovely, typey, and seems very kind. Nice walk for the breed. I don't know if the horse is competing at PSG or "trained" to it. It sounds like part of a sales/marketing program (so it might actually be just schooling PSG bits and pieces). Tanga, I do see a lot of horses from Spain and Portugal presented (or marketed) at that level for sales and export.

I agree, except I don't think she is really influencing him, there isn't much connection or shaping. Maybe there isn't supposed to be since it's warmup, but in stretching I want my horse to be off the forehand. I'm not sure why the rider is so all over with the hands, since this is a good rider.
I think the chair seat is throwing off the horse a touch, but he is so nice that he covers up a lot.

[Ryeissa]

Ryeissa I'm guessing they are doing this warmup because of the breed and the way the horse is built. They can get much too like a carriage horse, so lots of loose and low probably helps. I did this for me tight young horse for a long time, but don't do it anymore because she wants to stay there. These kinds of horses tend to the opposite, so I'm guessing that's why they do it.

Yeah, I do this too, but it's not an effective stretch. Its not what they are doing, it's how they are doing it.

This is too loose for my taste, but to each their own. Definitely a talented pair, just some weird aspects that they don't need..... The horse is more on his forehand at the end, and should be improved. I like a loose horse with some more tone and direction from the rider

Does anyone know what the wide hands are actually doing mechnically? I get making a chute with the hands, but that is not really happening here since the forearms are moving so much. I sincerely don't know the foundation for this theory wise, that is what prompted me. The more stable the hands are the better the horse will be.....and the forearms and elbows (as we know) plays a very key role in the seat and balance of the rider ..... Softness isn't about movement.... its about quiet stability where the horse is moldable, pliable and listening.... course my horse is all over the place flexible, so if I did this on my horse (the loosey goosey hands and seat) there would be one shoulder in one county, the hips in another.....

Agree about the chair seat. Would be curious how the horse changes if that is fixed.

[Chancellor]

Well, my comments would tend to focus on the rider. I would like to see her improve her chair seat tendency and also learn how to influence the horse's shape with less hand and much less use of W I D E hands. Wide hands are a crutch for baby horses and new riders---and they should not be something used routinely.

The horse is lovely, typey, and seems very kind. Nice walk for the breed. I don't know if the horse is competing at PSG or "trained" to it. It sounds like part of a sales/marketing program (so it might actually be just schooling PSG bits and pieces). Tanga, I do see a lot of horses from Spain and Portugal presented (or marketed) at that level for sales and export.

Totally agree Piedmontfields. I am working with a past student of mine now who tends to turn with her hands and not with her body. This rider is much too handsy for me. I also do not understand why you would be using wide hands on an advanced horse.
That said, I like how loose the horse is.

[Chisamba]

Low wide hands are specific to riding a horse in a long frame with a low neck, they positively encourage long stretch for the horse, and they help the ride feel which way the shoulder is leaning. the disadvantage of riding with a long rein is that if you loose connection with the horse you have to move your hands more to find it again, which can look handsy.

I do not find this riders hands to be tactless, i find the horse to be engaged, uphill and long, and in a good rhythm. I do like how the horse accepts the half halt without raising its neck and is supple in both directions. despite the long neck, the hind end remains active, stepping under and the shoulder remains uphill from the croup.


I do ride Kimba in a long frame from time to time, and work on regulating speed and rhythm without shortening the neck, i would be absolutely beyond thrilled if i was able to do so as well as this rider is, who is just getting used to her horse.

I have spent enjoyable hours watching top riders, when i had the chance, either on tv or live, and every single one of them have a quirk, or perhaps even a riding habit that could be considered not good. high hands low hands chair seat etc. I find it very interesting how riders who have never performed at that level can quarterback from the stands . I used to do that, until i realized it did nothing to improve me. when i look carefully to see what they do successfully, then i am able to go home with useful information to apply.

[Ryeissa]

Low wide hands are specific to riding a horse in a long frame with a low neck, they positively encourage long stretch for the horse, and they help the ride feel which way the shoulder is leaning. the disadvantage of riding with a long rein is that if you loose connection with the horse you have to move your hands more to find it again, which can look handsy.

I do not find this riders hands to be tactless, i find the horse to be engaged, uphill and long, and in a good rhythm. I do like how the horse accepts the half halt without raising its neck and is supple in both directions. despite the long neck, the hind end remains active, stepping under and the shoulder remains uphill from the croup.


I do ride Kimba in a long frame from time to time, and work on regulating speed and rhythm without shortening the neck, i would be absolutely beyond thrilled if i was able to do so as well as this rider is, who is just getting used to her horse.

I have spent enjoyable hours watching top riders, when i had the chance, either on tv or live, and every single one of them have a quirk, or perhaps even a riding habit that could be considered not good. high hands low hands chair seat etc. I find it very interesting how riders who have never performed at that level can quarterback from the stands . I used to do that, until i realized it did nothing to improve me. when i look carefully to see what they do successfully, then i am able to go home with useful information to apply.

Clearly this is an educated horse and rider.

I have been taught to stretch with the same amt of "stuffing" and tone as normal contact. On my horse this hand stuff would be a disaster, but it's good to learn about other tools

I guess I can feel the shoulder with out this long exaggerated rein and higher carriage, but thanks for answering the "why" behind this. My concern is it might accenturate the wobble of the shoulders L and R that we were reading about in the June thread, but each horse is different in which case on this horse is isn't a problem.

[blob]

I think it's good and acceptable to look at those more experienced and/or talented than we are in order to help ourselves improve. No rider is perfect--even the best of the best. But figuring out what things we want to aim for, try to emulate, etc is also how we learn to better. Recognizing what others struggle with, for me, is not about shaming or criticizing, but more about learning what works, what i should work towards, try, etc.

Having said that, I don't see any problem with low, wide hands--when needed. It's very common for green horses to be ridden with a wide hand, almost like side reins, to help them find their balance. And yes, this is not a horse in its first 30 days of riding, but it might need that support in a frame that it's not as used to, or that doesn't come naturally given its breed/type. I also think that the rider gets this--her hands are wide when the horse doesn't really want to stretch, but when he is settled, she brings her hands back together. I think any time we are having a horse to do something new/different/difficult for them we give the horse training wheels to help get there. that's how I see the wide hands--training wheels for the moments the horse needs support to find and keep his stretch.

[Ryeissa]

I think it's good and acceptable to look at those more experienced and/or talented than we are in order to help ourselves improve. No rider is perfect--even the best of the best. But figuring out what things we want to aim for, try to emulate, etc is also how we learn to better. Recognizing what others struggle with, for me, is not about shaming or criticizing, but more about learning what works, what i should work towards, try, etc.

Having said that, I don't see any problem with low, wide hands--when needed. It's very common for green horses to be ridden with a wide hand, almost like side reins, to help them find their balance. And yes, this is not a horse in its first 30 days of riding, but it might need that support in a frame that it's not as used to, or that doesn't come naturally given its breed/type. I also think that the rider gets this--her hands are wide when the horse doesn't really want to stretch, but when he is settled, she brings her hands back together. I think any time we are having a horse to do something new/different/difficult for them we give the horse training wheels to help get there. that's how I see the wide hands--training wheels for the moments the horse needs support to find and keep his stretch.

Isn't there a change in the seat though when the elbows are not next to the body? for me it really disturbs the overall contact and effectiveness of the seat. Part of the reason horses don't stretch is there is not good contact, to create this much movement would further de-stabalize the system. I suspect the chair seat is not helping the horse balance to be able to stretch, but who knows.

Also, I don't think it makes sense that this horse finds stretching hard, it's pretty basic.... but it's a lovely horse and rider!

[blob]

Also, I don't think it makes sense that this horse finds stretching hard, it's pretty basic.... but it's a lovely horse and rider!

I think a lot of horses find stretching hard because they've never been taught to do it. Yes, it's basic, but that doesn't mean every horse is taught basics well! A lot of iberian horses can get tight and quick and sometimes stretching does not necessarily come naturally to them unless it has been taught. I've ridden a lot of horses that have had to be taught to stretch down into contact. It's something no one has ever offered them and they don't really understand it. Not that it's physically challenging, but that it's something they haven't learned to do and therefore don't necessarily understand the coordination, or how to stay long and off the forehand.

We know that this rider/horse combo is new and that the horse is new to the trainer as well. So, makes sense that he would be going back to basics to fill in holes that he's found this horse to have.

[khall]

I got to ride Andalusians in Spain under Raphael Soto and one of his former students that went through the program at the School. They believed that stretching did not come first but riding in position first. RS words were stretching comes after collection. We did not stretch until we worked the horses. We always started out with lateral work in the walk, then trot then canter. Would stretch after in each gait after the lateral work.

[Ryeissa]

I see, that is interesting. My work comes from stretching as a foundation, it's interesting to note how that is not always the case. For me it leads into the other work and quality of the connection. (ie its not stretching just to stretch). Stretching has been the hardest thing to teach my horses.

Thanks for your comments everyone.

[khall]

Rye it was my understanding from RS and Vivi the instructor I rode with the quality of the stretching confirms the quality of the collection. They used the lateral work to straighten and engage and the stretching was to see if the horse would follow the hand down from the correcting work of lateral movements. This was in double bridles as well.

I would not advocate using wide hands in a double bridle.

[Ryeissa]

Rye it was my understanding from RS and Vivi the instructor I rode with the quality of the stretching confirms the quality of the collection. They used the lateral work to straighten and engage and the stretching was to see if the horse would follow the hand down from the correcting work of lateral movements. This was in double bridles as well.

I would not advocate using wide hands in a double bridle.

Yeah, that is my thought as well. If a horse can't stretch I wonder if it's been in a bit of a posed frame.
The one and only time I got a "9" was on my stretching trot in a first level test, so it's a bit near and dear to my heart. I find it essential....I noticed this past two weeks I'm loosing my stretch as we are at new phase of engagement of collection, so I have to be sure this stays "there" and accessible as we advance. I try to make one full ride a week or more in a stretching posture, but ON CONTACT.

[Dresseur]

My 2cents for what it's worth, when I do stretching work, I do have my hands wider in stretching work than in regular work - maybe hip width, or slightly more unless I have to momentarily move a hand away or closer to the horse's neck for a correction. I incline slightly forward and I do drop my hands down and forward to see if the horse will chew the reins out of my hands. I will open or close my elbow to quickly take up or give more rein, but ideally as the horse warms up, I will be able to feed more and more rein through my fingers, keeping a slight bend to the elbow. That being said, I don't put my elbows behind my back - her elbows go there consistently, I do also find her to be a bit chair seated, but she's clearly an effective rider. In terms of wide hand in the double, she's riding mostly off the snaffle, so while I find it slightly wide in the hand in terms of aesthetics, I don't see this as an issue.

I see this horse gesturing down occasionally, so I don't think he's posed, and he looks loose in his body, maybe a bit stuck in the left which is why he asks her to ask for more bend in the body a few times. I also watch very closely to see how the horse responds to half halts, throughout, this horse stays long in body and in neck and doesn't retract or stiffen from the half halts, and the rhythm is not interrupted.

So, that all being said, in young horses, what I have been taught and what I adhere to is that they earn the right to stretching warm ups because it puts the rider in a precarious situation. So, the just started horses do long and low after to get the idea of stretching, but they don't get started with stretching. As the training takes hold in terms of behavior and responsiveness, then we start deciding what type of warm up is best. Ideally, a stretching warm up works well for the horse - using a frame like in the video for walk/trot/canter. Some it makes them feel worse in their back. Miro is one that does well with a long and low walk to warm up, but then we pick him up and go to work. Eventually this could change, but he's also one that struggles with stretching correctly, so I think the feel in his back if we do trot stretch before he works is because of that - while after he is working, the connection is better and it's coming from collection, so the stretch is more "true" and more beneficial to him. In any case, this horse stretches way better than Miro. #goals.

[Chisamba]

So I recorded a little version of my stretch warm up work.

https://youtu.be/XbPpGKVJoJg

Perhaps it might interest some.

[Ryeissa]

thanks!

[demi]

I really enjoyed that video, Chisamba. Thanks for posting. I thought it was very smooth and harmonious.

[Ryeissa]

agree, it was very good. I consider it a better demonstration of a good basic seat than the video I posted in the first link, as far as overall business vs quietness. Thanks for sharing!

[piedmontfields]

Nice video, Chiasamba. And you look so fit!

[Boudicea]

Well that's not how I warm up my lusitano...

Seems like a waste of a warm up really. I also fall into the stretching comes after collection camp. I never had to teach my horse to stretch?!

And yeah 7 and doing I1? Well I guess when the horse breaks they can buy another. Sorry it makes me angry to see a lusitano ridden this way.

[Dresseur]

I think like all things, it's a case by case basis. My horse, a full andy, struggled with following the rein down and out. He'd follow the rein, but would curl even on a completely loose rein- like many of them do. We started incorporating a stretching warm up after he was able to be collected properly (not just assuming the position as again, many of the iberians do), and that quick warm up makes him feel good through his body when we pick him up.

Also, my horse is 7 and is competently schooling the I-1, and I certainly can't buy another if he breaks. He finds the work easy, and he is not drilled in anything other than the basics - which lead to the movements. I don't see an issue with this as long as it's done in a way that keeps the horse happy and sound.