Training Sessions: Length of Time

[musical comedy]

This will undoubtedly be another topic that generates different opinions.

I used to have to spend a lot of time with my now retired guy before I could get him really into the meat of the work. He was always like that; even as a young horse. Probably my technique wasn't good either.

Anyway, now I have a horse that gets to the program quickly and I can get as much quality as I feel I can expect at this point. I do it in a very short amount of time. I'm a clock watcher: I don't need a computer for help. I time everything.

It is amazing to me that I'll be trotting around and then I look at my watch and only 4-5 minutes has elapsed.

My point is...well maybe I don't even have one . Here's the thing. A Fourth Level or PSG test is only about 6 minutes long. People don't do two of those in a day (well, unless they're goofy) because they are taxing. Same goes for daily work. Even 10 meter circles can be taxing for a horse in early training.

Therefore, I'm wondering about all those 1 hour rides and clinics and whether they are really beneficial. I've noticed over the years the the top trainers do not spend much time at all in the work sessions. 20 minutes of energetic quality work, and that's it.

Now, if you are training an event horse or an endurance horse, then of course you need interval training, etc. If your goal is PSG or less, I don't think it requires spending a long time in a work session. I think it is far more productive to consistently schooling daily for short periods ocassionaly spending 1-2 days working a bit harder.

[piedmontfields]

I am really curious about this, too. I've certainly seen very capable trainers walk (or have the horse tack-walked) for 20 minutes, ride with focus and positive development for 15 minutes and end the ride on a useful note. I have improved my warm-up enough so that I am able to get to work more quickly, but I still need to put in a good 10-15 minutes of walking before we start.

BTW, the event riders at my barn tend to walk half a lap and then start trotting . They are usually out of the ring in under 20 minutes...but I will say that many do a lot less (far fewer transitions/patterns/changes of frame - stride length -bend) than what I think of as a typical dressage session. When I have a young eventer ride my mare when I am out of town, I have to reminder her to please please walk a shocking amount of time first!

I also wonder how much horse fitness is needed for different levels of work. My sense is that my mare is rather fitter than typical for a lower level horse, but not as fit as an upper level horse.

[Dresseur]

So, what I've observed in my microcosm is that horses are worked for no more than 45 mins.
Lower level horses start with longing for 10-15 mins (if they still need it) and then initial trot work (circles, changes of direction etc.,) and then into lateral work.

Lateral work is done to the horse's level. So, you start with a si in each direction (horses that are just learning maybe will do a few steps of it, then into a circle and back to the movement- rinse/repeat until they work up to a full long side) then build until they are doing up to 4 of each lateral movement in each direction. A bit of forward and back in the trot up to the horse's level. She doesn't do a lot of full blown extensions.

Transitions are worked in throughout the ride. Trot/walks or Trot/halts depending on the horse's feel and horse's ability level.

Canter work is next. Depending on the horse, sometimes you do the transitions first, sometimes get into the canter and then end on a few transitions. You do the same progression - a young horse may just canter a few 20m circles, then start on long sides, then start on lateral work.

Always, always end on a little bit of trot work - it teaches the horse to relax and that canter isn't this super exciting thing that you have to get through and then you can be done.

Walk breaks are interspersed throughout the work.

Upper level horses tend to be worked a little less in terms of time because the intensity is higher and you don't have to take breaks for as long as you do with younger horses. So, long/low warmup at the walk, then trot and canter, then into lateral work, then the movements. For the GP horses, p/p is done before and after the canter work. Andrea doesn't school many extensions because of the thought that a horse only has so many extensions in them - it's one of the exercises that is harder on their bodies. So, maybe 20 mins to 1/2 hour tops on those horses.

For Miro, he walks about 4 laps around the arena to get things moving because he's been in his stall all day since they are on night turnout right now, then longe for maybe 10 mins (5 on each side), then trot work (including laterals) then walk, then canter work, then walk. then trot work, end on a nice loose rein walk in the arena or around the property. He gets worked maybe a half hour/45 mins max total time.

Editing to add - once you find the warmup that works for the horse, that remains pretty consistent in terms of order and movements - that way, when you go to an exciting atmosphere, like a show, the horse knows exactly what to expect and finds comfort in that.

[DJR]

I vary my riding times, but on average they are around 30 min. In my lessons, they go a full 45-min but lots of walk/long-rein breaks in there (which I also do). My horses range from W-T/Training Level to Third/Fourth Level and seem to do well with this.

Occasionally, my big guy (Third/Fourth level) needs longer sessions to manage a certain issue (like over-exuberance & blowing off hh's in the changes), but that's not all the time.

I try to hack once a week, too, and they are longer but easy work.

[musical comedy]

It's important I think to be able to judge when your horse is tiring. That's how soft tissue injuries happen. That's why the walk breaks, even if short, are important imo. It's not easy for some of us to judge if a horse is tired, especially if they are a very hot horse or willing horse. My mare so far is pretty easy to judge because when I do a stretch break at the end, she doesn't want to balance and prefers to do the gravity stretch and eat dirt. She's tired.

I'm guilty of under working I guess. I know that in order to strengthen, human or horse, you have to push the envelope sometimes. I'm just not knowledgeable enough to that are to make the decision of when to do it.

[Dresseur]

MC, I'm not sure if it's totally applicable to you, but bringing M back from such a long time off, I'm realizing that the protocol of add a movement every week or two has actually was a great strength building protocol. It seems like a no-brainer, but because I was so clinical about it, from hand-walking one time around the arena in each direction and building on that, to trotting one long side and building from that, to adding one shoulder in each direction, and then another until we got to 4, then adding HI etc. etc - he feels stronger than before and there was nothing hap-hazzard about it.
Now that I've almost added all the lateral work back in, I'm adding transitions between gaits. So, trot/halts and canter/walks, and my ending trot, I'm asking for his very best trot for maybe a lap or two in each direction.

[tlkidding]

Especially thinking about upper level horses in regular work, they have an extensive cardio base that has been built up as long as they stay in work. I think you need to keep the cardio base conditioned with at least one 45+ minute session a week (more if you have a "heavier" or lazy horse). Half of that could be briskly walking hills and still be conditioning the cardio system, plus I think you need a horse that can at least trot for 10 min and canter for 7 min without a break in order to show at the upper levels.

The short spurts of schooling with walk breaks interspersed are like weight lifters working at their maximum weight - they can only do a few reps before the muscles are fatigued and need a break. You need to very carefully increase the intensity (more collection) or duration (longer time) of the movements at the top of your horse's training.

I think a lot of people don't have their horse fit enough when they get to a show and do a full warm up with a bit of schooling and then go in for their test (or 2 tests). You either need to do the same duration and intensity of warm up you do at home and then ride the test, or have conditioned your horse to do more than the "usual" to feel prepared on show day.

If you want to test your horse's fitness, do it without any schooling during the ride. I take the "eventer" approach and do trot and canter sets with a stopwatch and prescribed breaks. If my horse has not recovered his breathing during my 3 min break after a set, that's the end of our fitness and I need to gradually build from there. On those conditioning days, we are just trotting and cantering circles (on the bit but in a lower frame) or out in the fields. Once we have the cardio fitness base that I want, I will take the conditioning out onto rolling hills to help build some strength.

[khall]

I like to mix it up, sometimes I just go out and do 20-25 min of work, getting what I ask for and move on quickly. Sometimes I do longer works with more canter to build fitness for my WBs who are not so inclined. I also like to do trot/canter sets in the fields and will do this at least a couple of times a week footing permitting. My youngsters do less. I ALWAYS do a bit of in hand work regardless of who or what type of ride I am going for. Sometimes it is just a quick check, SI, HI, counter SI renvere, RB and we are done, sometimes it is much more involved.

[piedmontfields]

tlkidding, your approach sounds much more similar to mine. I found that I could ask a lot more frequent instances of "weight lifting" in arena when I assured that we had a solid fitness base (and could easily canter for 7 minutes straight, trot for 10-15, in the manner of motoring around in trot or canter sets---on the bit but not in collection or with lateral movements).

Even though I have a chunky mare (Lusitano x Trak), it is pretty easy to get/keep her cardio fit--and I have kept this up for years. I am always amazed after a 5 minutes of canter how quickly her breathing and heart rate drops. But I definitely have the impression that we work differently than many lower level (non FEI) pairs!

[Chisamba]

I warm up, do thirty minutes of work with about four stretches and breaks then cool down. Generally.

Interesting story. Me endurance horse developed an abscess just before a race so I took my fourth level dressage horse. Plan was to go as far as he could and pull up if he tried. I did fifty miles in four hours and won best conditioned award for my weight division.

Dressage is aerobic imho.

Several competitors started including dressage twice a well in their endurance training after that.

[kande50]

I'm guilty of under working I guess. I know that in order to strengthen, human or horse, you have to push the envelope sometimes. I'm just not knowledgeable enough to that are to make the decision of when to do it.

I think much of that depends on which is the higher priority: advancing vs. keeping the horse sound. Obviously, the goal is to accomplish both, but how much one is willing to push may boil down to how much risk (of damaging the horse) one is willing to take.

The first time around I wasn't aware that I was damaging my horse because the problems came on so gradually that they weren't obvious, but when I finally caught on to what had happened then I became much more interested in preserving my horse than in advancing.

I think maintaining soundness is just like learning dressage in that it would take lifetimes to master both skills.

[khall]

kande good dressage should build the horse up not break them down. Anja B uses piaffe to strengthen the broken horses she gets, making them sound and happy horses that do piaffe, Spanish walk and all the lateral work a good advanced horse would do. You might want to read her books and see what she does to help straighten, strengthen and balance the horses she works with. Her DVDs are good too.

[piedmontfields]

I remember that story about your dressage horse doing an endurance ride, Chisamba! That is impressive. I think Emi could knock out a 25 mile ride without much issue (especially if it were flatter than our typical terrain). But 50 is another story!

Kande, I am sensitive to working the horse hard enough to keep them fit but not over-working. I have a 16 yr old mare who powers up and down hills comfortably (actually in striking ease to many younger horses). I think the dressage work (straightness) helps her do this as she knows how to tuck her pelvis underneath herself. And I have a gut feeling that keeping them fit year round is better for the horses as they age than bringing them in and out of fitness.

Another thought: Have you ever ridden your horse after they've been running or super active in their turnout? Em is usually very mellow in turn out (she strolls + visits her neighbors), but when she is upset, she will trot and trot and trot (my barn owners call this her protest, which usually occurs when something in her neighborhood changes). If I ride her after she's done a pile of trotting on her own, she feels absolutely fantastic. And she is not tired!!

[StraightForward]

I don't time rides, but it tends to be about 45 minutes in the saddle each ride. Probably 15 minutes warmup including trotting and cantering in a longer frame and a little walk lateral work, 2-3 stints of more engaged work with walk breaks in between (5-7 minutes each?) and then cool down.

[Ryeissa]

Yeah, I agree that rides can be too long. Horses can't maintain that much collection or work no matter how fit! I like to give my horse a good long walk break after every 10 mins or so. I also do a lot of stretching. It all depends on the horse, mine holds too much tension and can be prone to over-work and keeps going.

Good hillwork has been essential to my program- I find I have to ride less per ride to get the same quality on a more fit horse. My rides are getting shorter. It's interesting that you mentioned this, I was just wondering if I was doing something wrong. My hacks tend to be longer.

[piedmontfields]

BTW, another pattern I see with FEI trainers is to work the horse that shorter period of time after warm-up (20 minutes), and to also have the horse hacked quietly for 30-45 minutes at another time of day. I think this works well for many pros since turn-out is more limited or managed for upper level horses.

It makes sense to me that this would be ideal, but it is a hard schedule to achieve for most amateurs riding their own horses.

Yesterday evening I had every intention of doing a quick, focussed 30 minute arena ride. Alas, due to mare tension regarding the arrival of a bunch of horses for xc schooling, we took longer to get to work. Our long walk warm-up, work sessions (3 sets) and cool down took about 50 minutes.The work bit included 20 minutes trot, 10 minutes canter. She was tired at the end, but relaxed and made good efforts in the weightlifting trot work (our bugaboo).

Today is easy hack day.

[musical comedy]

BTW, another pattern I see with FEI trainers is to work the horse that shorter period of time after warm-up (20 minutes), and to also have the horse hacked quietly for 30-45 minutes at another time of day. I think this works well for many pros since turn-out is more limited or managed for upper level horses.

Where do you see this? Do you have several FEI dressage trainers at your barn?

[piedmontfields]

Where do you see this? Do you have several FEI dressage trainers at your barn?

In my dreams! No, I'm at an eventing barn (where works multiple times a day are normal).

I've seen this from a number of trainers (who have assistants and working students) in NC and SC. I do think it is related to much more modest turnout time.

[musical comedy]

I ask because I have been with a number of bnt's over the years, and have not seen it. The ones I know don't even turn out and never hack. If they have working students, those students are busy and not enough time to be hacking for 45 minutes.

A couple of the top trainers around here have the walking machines and one I know has a treadmill.

[piedmontfields]

MC, I don't know if it is a regional phenomena or a change or just a matter of horse-keeping philosophy. And working students hacking or tack-walking seems to be a fairly normal part of the job for the trainers I know who do this. That's why the working student does it--and not the trainer (to save trainer time). In these situations, barn staff (not working students) deal with barn care matters.

The equicizers seem especially popular out west, but really they make sense anywhere land and turnout is limited.

[Dresseur]

Andrea turns horses out, they are all solo turnouts and range from larger fields to smaller paddocks. Some of the horses even get full night turn out, but her barn manager watches the turn outs like a hawk and makes changes if anyone starts to act overly foolish. But, most horses in training with her get about 4 hours of turnout a day. She never hacks out, and all of her horses do about 4 days of work a week, sometimes 5 if she doesn't have tons of lessons or clinics. Right now she has the following cross section:

2 horses being started
1 1st/2nd level horse
3 2nd level horses
2 3rd level horses (one of those is a 15/16 year old schoolmaster.
2 at PSG (one of those is a 23y/o schoolmaster)
2 I1 horses (one of those is a 23/24 year old schoolmaster)
2 GP horses, with another coming in for training.

So, it's a pretty good microcosm.

[Chisamba]

It used to be a thing that dressage horses never left the ring. So many reasons, footing change might injure them, blah blah. But the new social media trend toward ethical rising seems to have influenced people to turn out more, hack more, and get the horses out their stalls several times a day.

Be it walkers, sage turnout or even hackers. Didn't blueberry (valegro)have an eighty year old hacker?

[piedmontfields]

It's interesting to read about different approaches. Obviously, horses do survive many kinds of management arrangements! The upper level event horses at my barn do gets lots of turnout (including overnight), but are also watched for good behavior (and brought in if too wild). And turnout is managed according to weather and footing.

BTW, here is video of one BNT riding a GP horse outside the ring (just outside, but you get the idea!): https://www.facebook.com/jessica.j.tate ... 06691/?t=2

(btw, the horse is a 3/4 Connemara)

[khall]

chisamba yes!! Both CH and and Uta Graf believe in TO for their dressage horses. UG has hers in herds, CH has his usually in pairs. His big horse Nip Tuck lives out 24/7 and they both utilize hacking, so does Ingrid K. Of course CH comes from an eventing background and IK still events, UG is just a proponent of getting the horses exposure outside an arena. Blueberry also went on a water treadmill (I would love one but don't have a spare $160,000 laying around!)

Mine live out weather permitting as much as possible. Summer they are in during the day and out at night and winter they tend to be out 24/7. I do bring them in for a bit to work and then back out. Mine are in pairs except for one who does not play well with others. When I have had more horses (only 5 here now) I've had as many as 4-5 out in a herd in the big fields. I find my horses rarely get wild when they are TO regularly. Maybe if we are having a cool and windy day or if they have been stuck in because of weather for a couple of days they might run around, but usually only to nearest hay pile or patch of grass. I just close my eyes when they get stupid (which is rare actually) or go fly spray them because the flies are driving the nuts, or kill the bot fly, mine HATE bot flies and will run like deranged beasts.

[Xanthoria]

I get really bored with warmups in the ring, so I take my just turned 6 yr old on the trail first.

We have a 1 mile loop, and jog up a hill for the first 1/8 mile, then a slow incline for the next 3/8 mile, then walk back to the arena. That's 10 mins.

He's turned out 24/7 in a mixed herd too, so this is more about getting him forward thinking, building fitness and defeating boredom, vs warming up his muscles.

In the arena, I have a hard time doing more than 30 mins. He's a big, clunky baby so he tells me cantering a lot is really hard and we should stand still a lot more... possibly all the time.

Since using the EquiLab app I am trying to increase the canter, but it's tough to get over 5 mins of canter in the arena. I think this might be because I suspect EquiLab doesn't recognize canter in 2 point, and we jump once a week yet somehow only 5 mins of canter is recorded? Also cantering on him is exhausting...

[kande50]

Her (Anja Baran's) DVDs are good too.

I have her dvd's, but there's really no way of knowing anything about her horses' levels of soundness, or whether any of them broke down during training, or really anything other than what she wants to show us.

And of course, that's true of most trainers.

I also find it interesting that at least some think that the statistics show that dressage horses are the most damaged of all sport horses, which, if true, is IMO, something to be concerned about.

[Tsavo]

I also find it interesting that at least some think that the statistics show that dressage horses are the most damaged of all sport horses, which, if true, is IMO, something to be concerned about.

Tell that to the SRS.

There are trainers who also do rehab who take broken, crooked horses and make them sound and straight. They know what he hell they are doing.

It is not dressage that breaks down horses. It is the steep learning curve for people.

[Tsavo]

Whenever this issue of management comes up always think of Marzog, voted best dressage hose of the 20th century, who was deemed so valuable that he was kept in a tight, bubble-wrapped existence. That could not have been fun for him. That's why the counter approach of CH and UG is so refreshing to hear and to hope is more widely adopted. These animals are not machines.

[khall]

Actually kande AB in one of her books goes through several of the horses that are featured in the DVDs and explains the issues they had when they came. The Friesian stallion was one who was not sound, then with work she did became sound. There was also a WB g and a Andalusian stallion who also became sound with the work they did under AB. When dressage work is properly done it straightens and supples the horse, making them stronger and more even in their bodies. That is the whole reason I do dressage work, because it is good for the horses longevity when done correctly.

[musical comedy]

Her (Anja Baran's) DVDs are good too.

I have her dvd's, but there's really no way of knowing anything about her horses' levels of soundness, or whether any of them broke down during training, or really anything other than what she wants to show us.

And of course, that's true of most trainers.

I also find it interesting that at least some think that the statistics show that dressage horses are the most damaged of all sport horses, which, if true, is IMO, something to be concerned about.

I'm with Kande on this one. We don't know how many horses are broken down in any of these BNT barns (unless we board/train with them). That includes the beloved CH, UG, and the Spanish Riding School. Some horses stay sound in spite of poor care and riding and some become unsound with good care and riding. Just as people that eat well and exercise get crippled or diseased and others that lead an unhealthy life go without serious problems.

All we can do is our best to minimize horse injury while we are riding or on the path up the dressage ladder.

We all think our program is the right one.

[Tsavo]

I know two FEI trainers who also do a fair amount of rehab. One I observed first hand several days a week for about three years. She was a regional GP champion. Horses would come in broken and went back fixed. One horse who I liked very much came in, got fixed, went back to the owner, got broken, came back, got fixed and went back. I don't know what happened after that. There was a jumper who would not jump and the vets said he was sound. This trainer said he wasn't and finally found the issue. The horse was showing third and training fourth and working nicely after rehab.

I have no idea about marquee name people because I have not been in their barns. I doubt they do rehab at all. But I can guarantee you there are FEI regional champion type people out there rehabbing horses with correct dressage. These people are the DPTs of the horse world and I am specifically not talking about any rehab people who are not also FEI trainers. They may be helping fix horses but I have no data on that.

My point is if these people are capable of actually fixing horses then they probably aren't breaking others.

[musical comedy]

I have no idea about marquee name people because I have not been in their barns. I doubt they do rehab at all. But I can guarantee you there are FEI regional champion type people out there rehabbing horses with correct dressage. These people are the DPTs of the horse world and I am specifically not talking about any rehab people who are not also FEI trainers. They may be helping fix horses but I have no data on that.

What's DPT? I believe you, but the trainers I know and have worked with would not bother with doing rehab. In fact, they wouldn't work with someone not serious and in a program nor a horse that has no potential for the work. Think about it. There are only so many work hours in a day. A top trainer usually has a couple of their own to ride plus teach numerous students. The good ones have full books and not the time and inclination to spend on some problem horse.

[khall]

I agree with tsavo, this work when done properly should build the horse up make them more beautiful in their movement and body.

One of our Mark students was hired to use the in hand work Mark taught to help a young filly that was diagnosed with wobblers. When she came back from the trainers she was falling down her balance was so affected. The student worked with her for almost a year and improved her (rerouted those synapses) by several levels to the point that she was able to be put back under saddle again. Don't know if she kept up with the improvement because they did not keep up with the in hand work (sent her away from student). IMO this work needs to be done for life of horse to continue to help them.

MC you are relating "the good ones" to ones who are winning in the show arena, in my book "the good ones" do this for the benefit of the horse not for ribbons. Which is what AB does. She takes broken horses and heals them through the work she does because of her belief in the work to help the horse not to win gold medals.

[Tsavo]

Khall, DPT is Doctor of Physical Therapy. Nowadays, PTs are required to get the doctorate. Correct FEI trainers essentially have doctorates in dressage training in my book. This is what qualifies them to do rehab. I am excluding the trick trainers in this.